Need help starting a 4x13 layout - keeping the peace at home

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

I was about to start designs on a new layout for 7x11 feet but now have to settle for 4x13 feet.

So, I want to build HO, freight with one passenger service based on the Pere Marquette around Grand Rapids, MI. I am therefore depicting early transition era and want continuous loop style of operation.

I am compiling a list of must haves for the layout and will at some point have to start figuring out how to make them all work. My 8 yr old boy is more concerned with getting it in the layout than is it prototypical so at some point ill have to stop redirecting his wants in order for him to feel like he has a part in the whole process. Plus my 12 year old daughter is director of design so she doesnt feel left out. You get the picture.

I would like to avoid anything less than 22 degrees on curves.

I want as much of the Wyoming Yard including roundhouse and turntable, fuel, pits, coal, yard, monkey tracks, as possible and was thinking it would go on a penninsula of sorts.

we have to have the through girder bridge my dad and I built when I was a kid

A trestle of some type

depcitions of our various past houses worked into a neighborhood, and other key buildings in our lives

tunnel(s)

water

mountain

canyon passage

so far I guess im not telling much useful for help, not sure what to put out here.

I am leaning towards double layer but unsure if i transition via grade or helix

If I put in a serious engine service and freight yard that takes up about 30-40 inch diameter (one end of dogbone) and a helix would take up about same size on other end of dogbone??

I assume a modified dogbone shape is what im going for

I joined a local club and will pick brains.

What else shoudl I do in planning stage?

I’ve begun tryng to use SCARM layout deigner online, not getting it to work for me yet.

2

I strongly suggest you get a copy of Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong.

Not to rain on your parade, but you have too much listed for this size layout. You’ll need to pare that list down.

Good luck.

Paul

3

Note: before you start, take a moment to realizee that all layouts have compromises tucked away in someplace or another. That is the price of bringing the real world down to manageable, modelable size. Given the ages of your able assistants, also keep in mind that most layouts get modified over and over again during their life spans.

Therefore let me offer a couple of suggestions. When someone has only 8 years of life experience, seeing and running trains is a big priority. Build some basic table style benchwork, get a loop of track in place and let the young man get excited. Sidings, yards , staging and prototype operations can gradually be added.

At 12, scenery and style are important, so if a mountain appears in the midst of a future industrial neighborhood, just smile and be complimentary. In the scales that we work in, most mountains are just portable molehills. Let her take delight in adding cute and quirky, because there will be plenty of time to transform whatever she sees into serious “adult” concepts.

Do these things and not only will you have eace within your family realm, but you will have the benefits of finding that the entire family gains from sharing a hobby. The kids will learn that they can build all sorts of things, if they use a bit of patience and sharing. Best of all, everyone will have a lot of fun. As your building and modeling skills grow, the layout that you build will, in time, will be complete with the most worthwhile parts of your wish list nicely constructed.

Don H.

4

I can tell you from recent experience that the 30-40in number is woefully small. Much depends on your definition of “serious”, but the roundhouse is more like 26" Rnot “d”. Also keep in mind that the turnouts take up valuable area, and in a yard area, are not able to park cars on. A no4 turnout takes 8in just to get seperation, without bringing it back to parallel. Put a couple in a row and you are talking some length. Go with no 5s or 6s to run bigger locomotives on and the length keeps getting longer, and you still have nowhere to park a car yet.

I have a layout similar in size, and a roundhouse/tt/small yard was one of my mandatory items. It takes up about 10 linear feet, and it’s pretty small.

5

First of all it is 22" radius not degrees. That makes a very tight and steep helix. 22" radius makes a circle 69" in which you have to rise 4". That is about a6% grade. You will be able to pull 3 or 4 cars up that without having major problems. If you can it might be better to make it 6’ wide with a center aisle. Even that will have a very narrow aisle and many compromises.

6

As mentioned, compromise is in order. My space got reduced dramaticly, so am now in the process of figuring out how to keep my most wanted aspects and what else I can use to not overcrowd the layout.

It’s great that the children are interested. Two thoughts on keeping them interested, but not conflicting with your desires. Can you give them a small section of the surface to be “theirs?” The other thought is, can you have your layout high enough so they could have a small one under yours. With either, they can help you with yours, your plans, they can do on theirs as they please.

Just a couple of ways that I have thought of including the grandchildren, if I can drum up any interest. It is lacking at the moment, too easy to sit and wiggle thumbs.

Good luck,

Richard

7

We built my grandson a 4x6 layout for his 22"r Bachmann set and we’ve had lots of fun with it but his interests when I’m not around are now probably limited. So realize that things like XBox, etc will compete as he ages. So part of the issue is how much it’s for both of you vs perhaps down the road mainly for you. I second the idea of making a simple layout (whatever size) to get some things running, but have lots of options considered for adding new (track features) later as you might wish.

The 4’ width is a constraint that means 22"r with negligible room at the side. My grandson’s layout has EZtrack turnouts that I can’t recommend as his 4-8-4 can’t negotiate, so consider more negotiable turnouts such as #5.

My layout is (too wide to be recommended w/o and access hole) 5’9" x 10’6" or so and it’s a 2-level folded dogbone that allows two circuits of the space before repeating But the grade is 2.4 percent, which is a stretch (say for a sole GP9). See if you can stay within 2 percent max. If you get into 2-levels, it may take longer to get some trains running.

I found the process of tweaking a plan helpful in being generally satisfied with what I’ve built (within available space).

One regret: my better half approved the space but when built said “it’s really big”. The point being that I could have made it somewhat bigger (same room) and had the same perception occur. So I suggest to consider stretching some of the key constraints that create compromises.

8

Thanks, i needed to hear that. I have so much invested in HO i dont think i want to switch to N gauge but now I see why it makes sense!!

9

Yes thanks you are right of course. i found that out when getting a gifted 4x8 running again.

More good advice and true; this worked on a previous set with good results

10

your observations are helpful of course. I may get a decent yard/staging area on a second layer.

11

yes my numbers are off, I just know a helix will take up loads of room and i need to decide if i need a second layer or not. Maybe elevations on one layer are enough