Need help to get out of layout pergatory!

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Ok guys, I come humbly before you asking advice. I am stuck in layout pergatory. My wife and I had a little boy a little over a month ago, so naturally being our first and him being a boy, I want to get started on a model railroad that we can both work on together someday. I am a midwestern guy, live in Ohio. So I grew up in the heart of B&O, C&O, Chessie and the like. I thought that was what I wanted to do on my layout, went so far as to even buy an Athearn Genesis C&O F7 set and some Chessie stuff.

The wife and I recently took a trip to Arizona, went to Sedona, that area up there. I’ll be darned if I didn’t fall in love with it and become smitten for the Santa Fe. After we got home, I did alot of reading up on the ATSF and found I even had some distant family that worked for them way back in the day. And those F7’s in the warbonnet scheme are gorgeous. I also have a giant love affair with route 66 and that sort of nostalgic stuff.

Enter my dilema - I have to decide between Chessie in the 70’s and 80’s or the Santa Fe in the 50’s and 60’s. I am leaning heavily towards the Santa Fe at this point. Once I actually make my decision, I need some guidence as to where to go from there. I have the space to do a small to medium layout. I am not worried about specific aspects of it right now, but I don’t know how to go about putting my plan in motion. Do i design the track plan, figure out what I want my scenery to look like, etc. I am brand new to this so I am sort of “lost”.

Thanks for any help and advice you can provide!

2

One of the major issues you will face will be designing a layout or track plan. The first thing to do is define the space that you have. How much of the room can you use? Do you need to have a workbench in the same room? You will get more running track if your layout is along the walls with a peninsula or two sticking out toward the center. The longest that you can reach things is about 24 inches. Thus quite a few folks make their benchwork 24 inches wide. The peninsulas can be wider because you will have access from both sides and the end.

What I do for layout design (have done so far) is define my area and benchwork first. Next I decide on a theme. (Mainline running, with a branch line(?) or other special interests.) Then I put in a mainline. I am fond of twice around the room types divided by scenery and grades.
Since I have gotten into operations, I also have a staging area of some sort, whether it is a lay-over for entire trains, or a yard that simulates an interchange yard. One track in staging is a through track for continuous running. If I put cars on it, the layout becomes point to point for operations.
Next I try and determine how many small towns I can have, and possibility one city with a yard and loco facilities, without them crowding one another. Usually small yards and facilities unless I have the room for larger ones. I will try to fit in a way-side industry or two just for variation as long as it won’t crowd things.
Then I go looking at plans for modular railroads. I look for ones that would make good towns or cities because their track plans are usually fairly compact, and most of the way they will be switched is already determined with a good track plan themselves.
Because I freelance, I don’t worry about town and city names etc., but if you want to model a specific prototype, you can name the towns as the railroad you are modeling would, and build or plan you scene

3

Just remember, it’s your railroad, and you can run whatever you like. So if you still have some love for the local RR’s, run them with the Santa Fe stuff. No one will tell on you :slight_smile:

I myself hold the PRR to be my main or favorite RR to model. I oddly enough also lived in Newark/Utica at one time. Now I live in Utah and have fallen hopelessly in love with the ol Rio Grande. I was torn between designing a layout for the PRR or RG… and decided it really doesn’t matter. I’ll run both and enjoy the hell out of it!

4

It’s not pergatory, just the first baby steps and growing pains!

First, as Elmer said, you need to define your space for your layout. Figure out what space you have, what format you want {4x8, 5x9, around the walls, freestanding oval}.This would be a given.

Then you have to figure out what type of operations you want, and then what type of scenery you want. That may all help you to decide which railroad you want to model. OR you can freelance your layout and run what you wanna. This would be your druthers.

It is best to make a list of “givens and druthers”:

Givens are things you really cannot change like available layout space, obstacles {if any like pillars, furnace, doors, h2o heater} in the way of the layout space, Running DC or DCC, this can even include what minimum radius curves you want or can have on your layout based on its floorplan, etc.

Druthers are what you would LIKE to have for your layout such as: type of scenery, railside businesses such as coal mining operations, grain silos, brewery, passenger service, freight etc.

Those two lists may help you better decide which of the two RRs you are considering you may want to model. You can go to the right side margin here and find the “search our community” section and do a search for “givens and druthers” in the general forum listing and come up with threads that will list out many of the “givens and druthers” you may consider better than I can right now.

I freelance a small layout based on B&O and all it’s incarnates…C&O, Chessie and CSX, because I loved the Chessies rolling by on the EL near my house growing up and I like steam also. It is loosely based on all of them, so I can change out some scenery items {like autos} and RR equipment to change eras on my layout so I don’t get bored with one era. Sometimes I just run what I feel like. I also like th PRR certain Locos I fell in love with at the Railroad Museum of PA in

5

You’ve gotten great advice so far so I won’t belabor that, though I do have something for you to think about…

It sounds like you’re a fairly young guy who might be moving in a few years due to job/career change, larger family etc. You might want to take that into consideration in your planing also. Then again, some folks build what they want, as big as they want. They worry about moving the layout when the time comes.

Just something to keep in mind and further complicate things… [;)]

Jarrell

6

You have indeed been given great advice so far. I can only add that you need to define WHAT your railroad’s purpose for existing is FIRST, then it will be relatively easy to fill the space you have with what you want.

For example, assume you want a railroad that hauls flugglegork from Bigtown AZ to East Nowhere UT. So what you would need is a flugglegork facility in Bigtown and one in Nowhere, with a town or two along the way to pick up and drop off other commodities such as widgets and knibbling pins. Along the way your railroad must cross UP and BNSF rail lines, so there will have to be some kind of junctions where trains can be swapped if required.

Now you know what you want, it’s a simple matter of filling the space you have. The topogrophy is dictated by the route of the tracks and you can use real places as inspiration for your model scenery. Take some photos or look up “typical” towns along the way to look at the kinds of buildings and type of vegitation etc. Your track plan now goes from Bigtown to Nowhere, either in a point to point or dogbone or whatever, but in your imagination it’s all point A to point B, with sidings and industrial towns along the way for addtional revenue.

I will repeat the point that was made earlier that you cannot fight the space you have nor wish it to be larger or different, you must learn to work with it, not against it. But with a plan and purpose for your railroad (a “theme” if you wish) it doesn’t matter how big or small it is because it now has a reason to be there in the first place.

Good luck and post some photos!

7

Jeramey, try you local library. I am looking for impression for my second layout and was stuck. I picked up 6 books about model railroads to get the brain working. The two I like the best are by John Armstrong, The Classic Layout Designs and my favorite The Model Railroad Track Plan Book.

Far as Santa Fe Warbonnets, what is there not to love. When I was a kid use to see them in the local B&O yard all the time.

Ken

8

First, congrratulations on the new addition.

I agree with Jarrell, you have a lot of changes still to come in your life. What ever they may be, if you plan your layout to be moved, it will be a lot easier. It may not fit your new space, but saving sections will be much easier.

My plan is to build my benchwork, mostly a skelleton to support 2" foam sheets, in 2’x6’ sections. I feel that 8’ sections would be too hard to get out of the space it is planned for. When I get ready to start construction, I am going to take a couple of pieces of various sizes and see what goes in and out easily. A little smaller for for getting out of this location may be tight getting into the unknown space it may have to be moved to.

A couple of places to look for ideas are: Model Railroad Planning 1999 - Domino Planning Basics - can vew ordered from ModelRailroader.com. How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork - from Kalmbach Books. (I was just reading 102 Realistic Track Plans, which refer to these). You can also search these forums for such terms as modular benchwork, movable benchwork, domino benchwork, sectional benchwork.

Just because you build your benchwork in sections you do not have to leave seams like you see in modular layouts at shows. You can lay rails and fully scenic, if it has to be moved, a Dremel type tool will cut the rails and use an appropriate tool to cut through the scenery. If it goes back together as built, rail joiners and a little scenery patching and you are back in business. If you can only save a scene or two as originally built, it would be worth the extra effort at the beginning.

Good luck,

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This is not a decision that must be made in haste. Think about it for a while, monitor these forums, then build what makes YOU happy.

He can’t even hold his head up by himself yet, you have lots of time before your have to degrade your little empire by adding Thomas the Tank Engine and some hidden staging to hide him when the youngster is not in the room.

10

Thanks for all the info and advice so far guys! I really appreciate it. I have 2 things figured out so far. 1) My useable room space is 14.6ft wide and 13.6ft on each wall. I don’t want to have any huge yards or anything, but I envision a layout with a double track mainline set in the desert southwest ie new mexico and arizona. I’d like to have a mainline stretch where I can incorporate a fictional section of rt. 66 running along the mainline with maybe a little rt. 66 town in there too. I want to run medium size freights and I hope to someday add a slimmed down version of the Chief and Super Chief. Anyway, I digress. The second thing I have figured out, is that Chessie is going west! Should be interesting. Thanks for the help and ideas!

11

First, I do not recommend some of the others advice of “just do what you want”. I did that for so many years I now have such a hodge podge of equipment I will never be able to make them work well together. I recommend choosing just one and sticking with it. I KNOW that I would have enjoyed everything the past 20 years more had I concentrated my research and modeling skills on ONE geographic area, one set of railroads native to that area, and ONE era. I’ve got all sorts equipment from 1870 to 2005. It has therefore taken me years to decide that I am going with the Pueblo & Arkansas River Valley Railroad (Santa Fe) brought forward to the 1940s-50s. Had I just decided that 30 years ago I would have an awesome layout today instead of piles of unrelated railroad stuff. P.S. to that thought Anyone interested in doing a Louisville & Wadley short line. I’ve got all the stuff for it!

Both Santa Fe in the 50s 60s and C&O in 70s 80s has tons of pre-made, pre-painted, equipment to choose from. So no problem there on either count.

For a Route 66’ theme layout you might want to check out past threads on this forum for “grandpa coyote”. The Forum members here helped him design his route 66 layout, that ended up as below:

http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/Route66Railway/home.htm

My son modeled the B&O and we had a great time with the transition to Chessie especially the saftey cabooses. I think we have collected all but three of them. He has dropped from the hobby so B&O/Chessie is just sitting around in boxes. On the other hand my youngest daughter just caught the fire ball bug. So there might be some WM/Chessie in the future on her layout.

To me the biggest deciding factor would be the scenery. Desert southwest vs Appalachian forest.

Colorado Gulf

12

I disagree with Zephyr. It’s a HOBBY. Do what makes YOU happy.

Some people, often called rivet counters, enjoy making a small representation of the real world in as much accurate detail as possible. That is what THEY enjoy.

Some people populate their layout with dinosaurs and flying saucers or have steam and Acela on the same layout. That is what makes THEM happy.

Some people collect Elvis plates. That is what makes THEM happy.

There are no layout police. Do what makes you happy and when the little guy gets old enough to contribute an opinion you KNOW that he is going to ask for things that don’t fit your plan. You also know that you will not be able to refuse him. Just enjoy.

13

Well, Texas Zephyr was right on at least one count: whichever you choose, you will have no shortage of prototypical kits and ready-to-run (or install) items available.

Ultimately, though, I side with PhoebeVet: It’s your hobby and your layout. You do what will make you happy. Period. Texas Zephyr found out after 30 years that the mish-mash of mismatched equipment just didn’t do it for him. Knowing that if you stick with this hobby for a while, you will be bombarded with images of gorgeous layouts the do have a unified theme, I suspect that you may find yourself in the same boat, but I offer this as something to consider, not a caution against doing something now.

Personally, I grew up in the heart of Pennsylvania RR territory (Penn Central, by the time I reached my teens), with a lot of little short lines around. I went to college in New York Central / New Haven territory (eastern NY – again, Conrail or abandoned completely by then), and, after a stint in the Navy, settled in the heart of New Haven territory. I love the Northeast, with it’s green, rounded summits, fall foliage, dancing brooks and large, lazy rivers. But there’s also something to be said for the broad vistas of the Heartland, the rugged crags of the Northwest, and colorful deserts and wild rock formations of the Southwest.

And while I’m also drawn to the raw power of chain of modern Norfolk Southern SD70s thundering over Horseshoe Curve, I decided to model the New Haven in 1956, because I wanted to model the area near my home. Why 1956? Streamlined diesels and electrics hauling swift, streamlined passenger consists or slow, lumbering freights. And, because the NH had begun a new paint scheme in 1954, 3 different paint styes, all of which were in use. And the year my parents met. But you know what? 1956 on the New Haven meant no steam – the last one went to the scrapyard in 1953. So

14

Don’t worry Zepher I’ve got your back on this one. Simply having a theme to your layout does not mean you are a “rivet counter” or other grim faced killjoy, quite the opposite. Having a theme, be it the modern BNSF Arkcity sub or a whimsey Alice in Wonderland fantasy allows you to focus what you are doing to a common purpose. You will spend less money on things you will never use and at the same time you will have more drive to finish what you are doing and improve on past work. It took me about 25 years to figure out this very simple truth. Yes, it is your layout and you can do whatever you want, nobody ever said different, but your layout needs a purpose and a theme or it’s just a hodge-podge of this and that. With a theme and a history (be it real or imaginary) it makes no difference at all if you have 6 square feet or 600, your layout will be the same- the same history, the same purpose, the same elements, only difference is in the scale in which it is built. I dissagree that “do what you want” is purposful advice since it gives no direction and fails to impart any knowledge to the asker. The reason the person is asking the question to begin with is because they are doing what they want and it’s not getting them anywhere.

15

I think we’re misinterpreting the “do what you want” answer here. We’re not – at least I’m not – suggesting that he run out to the LHS and just start buying stuff. Your layout needs some cohesion – a plausible if highly fictitious reality behind it. If you have no industries that need stock cars, then you probably shouldn’t have them among your equipment – UNLESS you want to model a through train that is hauling stock cars and doesn’t stop anywhere on your layout. Similarly, I wouldn’t advocate installing a turntable in the middle of your mainline, although again, if the modeler

16

Yes, I fully understand that. But a simple “do what you want” gives no guidance how to enjoy the hobby of model railroading as opposed to simply playing with trains. Its no different than trying to learn the hobby of skiing by having the experts tell you to “do what you want, they’re your skis”. To model a railroad it is important to understand the whats and why’s of a railroad, then you can make one in model form. Under that umbrella you can have a turntable on a main line, if you have a plausable back story for it, and you can run any kind of freight car that is era consistant with the back story of your railroad. To enjoy the fullness of the hobby of modeling a railroad you must understand the concept of “purpose and scope” for a railroad in the first place, otherwise you are simply playing with trains.

As a caveat, I do model a railroad, and I also play with trains, but I don’t mix the two. My HO is a model of a railroad, my garden RR is for playing with my trains. My HO has a history and a cohesion, my garden does not. I focus my HO purchases to enhance the history and growth of my railroad, yes, that limits me in my case to GP-10’s and simple 50ft box and hoppers, but I can superdetail them and in many cases I can model a specific piece of stock- yet I find that hugely rewarding and tons of fun. On my garden RR I can run steamers one minute and the next run an Eggliner painted as a ladybug- I even once ran a rocket car (didn’t work out so well but it was fun!). My HO is a model of a railroad, my garden RR is not so with that in mind what I do on my HO matters, what I do in the garden does not.

I would never begrudge somebody “doing what they want”, if they want to run Pullmans behind an Acella then so be it, if it makes them happy, but don’t expect me to think of that as the hobby of model railroading. If somebody has 300 ft of brass sectional track nailed to green painted plyw

17

first of all theres no reason why you couldn’t do both layouts, perhaps a bit smaller or in N scale.

first thing that i would do is talk to the missus, she might be interested in some aspects of things. generally its scenery but it doesn’t have to be. Ive known plenty of women that are highly skilled with a soldering iron. if its “our” hobby as opposed to “your” hobby, its a bit easier to justify funds for equipment or trips to do research etc.

congratulations on the new addition, from experience it means many a sleepless night, things settle down after they are in school but when they’re teens, its sleepless nights again but for different reasons.

18

Wow, I think the do what you want comment got taken way off the track! I basically do what I want but with a direction. I dont do much proto modeling, my layout is all freelance set in the 50’s transition era and the train’s are either early diesels and some steam and all the buildings and designs are from that era but it is all ( do what I want ). Now with that being said, you can still do what ever you want if you dont care if you have a modern diesels mixed with a F7 or a steamer and yes it wont look right but its all up to you. Just have fun and think about what you want to accomplish, either with a true proto plan, freelance with direction or a hodge podge of all kinds of stuff!

Dugan

19

Jack:

I find it offensive that only YOUR definition of model railroading is legitimate and anything else is just “playing with trains”. I hate to break it to you but unless you are doing it to make money like George Selios, your system is just playing with model trains, too. You just have a different goal, which is your right.

I meant no insult when I used the term “rivet counters”. People who do think it is a slur are people who think worrying about too much detail is obsessive compulsive disorder. I do not. Some people take great pride in extremely accurate detail, but not everyone does. A hobby is whatever makes you happy, whether it’s accurate reproduction of a real railroad or just a collection of trains that appealed to you at the time of purchase.

I know that Thomas the Tank Engine never ran on the Erie Lackawanna, but my 3 year old grandson doesn’t, and running Thomas on Papa’s layout is one of his favorite pastimes.

Only the original poster knows what he wants now or will want in the future.

20

That’s not true, I’ve seen Thomas at Steamtown, and that’s former Lackawanna property [(-D] [swg]

–Randy