I touched this subject about 4 months ago and got some opinions that tried to steer me away from buying brass loco’s. Since then I have bought 3 brass steamers at some good prices. Two of them are PMF 2-8-0’s that both came with boxes, one has been remotored and regeared, the other one has the original motor and gears and sounds like a grinder running. The third unit I bought was a guy I know who knows even less about brass than I do. It is all taken apart with no box, it apears to be all there to and is a 2-6-2 with an oil tender, and open frame motor. I gave him $75 for it.
I have held off on buying anymore because, lack of knowing the manufactures that are out there, and afraid of being burned on something that is not worth allot. I have found several web sites that give some short advice on buying and selling brass loco’s and aquired a list of all the manufactures including the ones that are out of the market.
My question is, is there a web site that gives more info on what to buy and what not to buy out there? There are allot of brass loco’s out there on the market some old some new, some that are just for display. I am looking for ones that are fair priced, but need regeared and motored.
I borrowed a book called the Brown Book about brass, and it tells you some things but seems to be out of date.
Let me know what you guys think, or am I just wasting my time.
It sounds to me that you are thinking of it as an investment, which is a bad idea. First, there are many people (Doctors etc.) that have a lot more money and can afford to gamble. The brass market is seriously declining , which is why Overland went into plastic and so many others have gone out of business. There is still a market, but it is road and model specific. That is too say, if you have a model someone wants, it is worth quite a bit. If it is something nobody wants, well you’re stuck. Guys like BLI and Tower are starting to fill the old brass market , so brass will continue to decline. There only strong suit may be narrowgauge.
As long as you are finding the engines you want at a price you are willing to pay, I say go for it. I’ve got a few, fairly cheap, and have learned alot about solddering and repowering in the process. Brass should NOT be looked upon as an investment, but as small working models made of metal. The plastic market has yet to even come close to the amout of prototype engine that the brass market has offered, and I doubt it will.
Yes, the brown book is out of date, but there is also a lot of good info in there. Have fun with brass.
I will tell you this. The feeling you get seeing your recently refurbished brass engine run well, is the best feeling you can have while still keeping your clothes on![:0]
Got lots of money? then brass is NO problem. I got a brass berk for $40.00(no tender) spent $35.00 on a professional to fix a couple of things (he was very generous) waited a long time and got a tender, it’s truly a beauty. Investments ? ? ? it’s a dicey game, probably you could make a few bucks, but you are competing with guys that have 500 mint brass locomotives-go figure ! Also I’m sure the repair bill for bringing these 3 locos up to snuff will stagger you, If I was buying used brass there are very reputable dealers out there with some great prices and they back up their product, of course the “hot” locos will sell for more but there are plenty of super locos for sale, want to invest try NYSE.
Despite some naysayers the brass market while smaller is still quite healthy.
One site you might wi***o look at is www.brasstrains.com
Also simply do a Google search for brass locomotives to find other dealers who may be able to help you out .
As for the one you purchased and are not sure about,try posting a picture,we should be able to help you identify it.
And if theres any local model railroad clubs in your area check with their membership,us guys love a challenge!!
I’m not getting from the original post that this is an investment. Maybe I’m missing something here but it seems you are just trying to keep from getting burned. Unless you are looking to just amass a large collection of the shiney stuff, pick the ones you want and go after those. I do recommend you learn how to tinker them yourself as paying somebody else to do it can get expensive. The brown book, though outdated on prices, is still a good reference. A general rule of thumb is that anything produced after about 1972 or 1973 (there-abouts) is going to have a factory installed can motor. Low $$ brands (used market) that I’ve always found easy to work with or rework if needed are PFM (Pacific Fast Mail), WSM (Westside Models), Hallmark (not the greeting card company), some OMI, and Sunset. Some would throw Tenshodo in there too. With one exception, I’ve never paid more than $300 for one, the price I set as my limit when I first began buying brass. Though I don’t buy for investment, it’s interesting to note that every one I’ve sold (for one reason or another), I’ve Made money on. Yes, the market is still there. Maybe small, but it’s there.
Earlier brass (late 50s early 60s), in my experience, far less fine on detail and could actually fall apart in your hand due to deteriorated solder bonds. I’m not really sure why that happens but You’ll recognise these on sight, most will have stamped parts (domes, ect) rather than cast details. Early Akane and Gem (to name a couple) models fall into this catagory.
In buying used brass, I think it would be wise to insist that it have the original box and inserts. Those, sometimes, are the only indicators as to How Old it is. Speaking of inserts, Watch out for anything that has RED foam as the insert. This stuff often bled into the laquer finishes of the models. Two that I know used it were WSM and Sunset.
Probably not much help but there it is anyway…
Edit: A side note, A good resource for when something was released is b
If you’re buying these brass locos to be a future investment or to try and rebuild them and sell at a handsome profit, I would have to say you’re about to bite off more than you can chew. More and more of the old brass loco manufacturer’s are going over to plastic because there’s just not a good market for the brass locos. Me myself, I wouldn’t touch one with a ten foot pole.
I have acquired 16 brass locos over the past 3 years, all in various states of condition and all from various sources. I do not think of it as an investment, but more like a collection of working art. The first few engines that I got were all over the map. A PFM PRR 4-6-2 K4s, a PFM ATSF 2-8-0, and a PFM 2-6-2 Oregon American Lumber Co. About that time I decided that I needed to become more focused on what I was going to buy. Since then I have focused on getting locos only from the roads that I model (C&O, SRR, and N&W) or geared steam. I try to only buy ones with the OB, and I use the latest Brown Book (by John Glaab) and eBay to determine what I am willing to pay. I am very patient when looking to buy a loco now as well. I have only paid more than $350 once for a loco an that was $599 for a new N&W 4-8-0 from PSC. The average price that I have paid for my brass locos excluding that one is $155.
I use the Brown Book mostly to determine if the loco is a good runner and to decide if the price would be considered fair in 1994 when it was last published. Then I look for the engines to come up on eBay to determine an average of what they go for now. I also check sites like Caboose Hobbies and BrassTrains.com to see what the average consignment and dealer asking prices are.
I intend to paint and run all of my locos eventually, but I do enjoy just looking at them for now. I hope some of this helps you out.
The Brown book is very good overall, but the third edition was printed in 1994 and is not up to date on prices or models imported since the early 1990’s. I have all three editions and the general information on older models is good.
Most older used brass can be purchased from private sellers at a bargain today if you are ready to pay the money.
Most train shows have a few bargains and sometimes a few bargains can be found on Ebay, but many are advertised as rare when they are not.
The following dealers (and their websites) are good sources of info on whats available,price ranges and having dealt with them I can recommend them also. Mitchells at www.mitchells.com, Don Black Brass Trains at www.donblack.com, Piermont Division ( Dan’s Train Depot) at www.brasstrains.com all these websites/dealers have extensive website with photos, prices, ebay is also a good place to watch for availability and price ranges. Since you seem to be interested in buying and running your locomotives I would stick to finding running engines in the best condition you can afford or are willing to pay. If you can see the locomotive in person and watch it run do it , the cost of gas is a lot cheaper than buying someone elses headache. Finding missing tenders or replacing missing detail parts gets extremely expensive more quickly than paying a bit more for a complete and better conditioned example of that locomotive in the first place. Tips for buying ask lots of questions(if you have any doubts walk away from it if you wait long enough another one will come along and often will be in better shape and price), look very closely at the photos because you can hide an amazing amount of problems with a blurry picture or a poorly lighted one. Also since you are eyeing the older cheaper brass realize that those engines could have been through several owners and have been modified by as many and have been modified poorly (depending on their skill level) so the manufacturer’s brand name might not have much bearing on it’s condition or performance or lack of same.
Thanks guys for the info. I am not buying brass as an investment, more of they are really detailed and have more detail than most plastic models. As far as working on them, that is my nitch anyway, like to tinker and do my own repairs.
Brass has always been something I wanted to get into, but there are so many different models and manufactures out there, some that are gone, and some that are still thriving. The 2 PMF loco’s I have came in the orginal boxes with papers, and like I said, one runs like a top and the other runs like a grinder do to the older gears and open frame motor. The third unit is a Westside, but has some issues that need taken care of.
I am not really getting into brass for the fun of it, I just think they are neat and I have always had a thought of buying them. I would like to have about 10 or so of them, I have a few cars that I aquired years ago and run them with my plastic loco’s.
There is know way I could buy as many brass as I have in plastic, Think my wife would shoot me! I have just under 200 plastic loco’s in plastic, and boxes and boxes of parts for them.
I am looking to spend anywhere from $200 to $400 on steam loco’s, not intrested in the $1000 or more units. I have a freind of mine who has an older Shay that I reworked for him and got it running like a top, I would love to get one for myself, but they seem pretty expensive in the used market.
I guess its the look so you can call it the art part of brass and good running does not really matter to me that much, thats where the tinkering comes in then.
Thanks guys for the info, you all been a big help, been in th MR hobby for more than 25 years now and am still learning.
I say go for it. I buy brass strickly for the imvestment. I know the engines I select will GROW in value instead of declining. I also feel the brass market is very strong today. I paid $600.00 for my 4-12-2 Sunset. I know right now I could turn it around for over $1000.00 in a heartbeat.
When it comes to brass, you get what you pay for. Expect to pay around $600 for a well detailed, good running brass steamer. Or $1,000 for something that surpasses today’s mass produced diecast. $75 will get you a junker to be rebuilt and customized to a specific road and era. Brass is easy to rebuild and customize because it’s easy to cut, etch, machine, and solder. There are many details you can buy or facricate and etch yourself.
As others have said, the diecasting industry has seen vast improvements in recent years and pretty much put brass out of buisiness. This is due to digital tool and die making along with much finer and stronger alloys. The chineese have become a world leader in model train making, especially plastic, because their tooling is new and state of the art. Check out Life Like’s new Proto 2000 RS-27 diesel, you’ll be amazed.
Don’t buy brass because it’s brass. Many buy brass only if they want an oddball model that isn’t mass produced. Or old school modelers who are stuck on brass. Buy quality and beware of budget brass engines. They are often assembled with low grade solder which disinegrates with age. They also suffer poor quality control. You are better off buying Bachman Spectrum plastic for less money.
I don’t think there is any one specific brand of brass engine that I could compare to as good bad or ugly, as I expect all brass lokies to be quality.
But for example I bought a brass Virginial EL2B from a modeler and it had plastic gears that were known to crack. Mine had one cracked gear and one couldnt run. (its a 2 lokie set mated electric engine, 4 trucks on each. ) So II have this NWSL display of gears I bought of a local hobbyshop that has a bunch of gears n suff init and I could replace the gears with NWSL, but it had trouble mating down at the truck gearbox.
I ground down the gear casing to get the gears to mesh and it just runs superb.
I did it to both engines even tho the other was OK, the regear changed the gearing speeds.
Point is in buying any brass, just expect any kind of problem possible and be wary you might have to fix something…or not.
Something breaks on them you might not have the parts to find except to scrounge around.
But Brass should be very hardy in performance, just keep it lubed.
If you find the prototype model your looking for, go for it.