Hi Guys n gals. My chuff has suddenly vanished on BOTH a Paragon 2Hudson J1-e and a Blueline AC 4 Cab Forward.
CV chuff reprogramming didn’t have any result. Is there something else I can try or…try again before considering it’s the chuff sensors(s) gone bad/dead?
Is there a way to test the chuff sensor with a multi-meter without disassembly?
I hate to send them back for repairs if I don’t have to.
I may not understand everything you advise, but my DCC tech friend will. Thanks for whatever help you can offer.
My buddy used a track booster, an separate programming track in both Ops mode and Paged mode (Digitrax DCC decoder in the Cab Forward.
I believe both are still under warrantee (but will have to dig out receipts) and not sure if we should open them up at all yet. Thanks!
All the other sounds are there as far as I know. (Didn’t check every function). Got whistle, bell, coupling, etc. just fine. We didn’t set the sound chuff to minimum. We kept trying to boost it’s volume. There are a number of chuff CVs which was a bit confusing, in the manual, but it seemed which one was the main volume CV… Thanks.
I take it you are operating these on DCC? Can you blow the whistle and ring the bell? If you can then both decoders are on the same address. If not then the Blueline decoder has been corrupted and lost its address and a simple reset and address will probably fix it. If the whistle and bell work then it is probably the plug loose or the chuff sensor mounted above the flywheel. One of my Bluelines chuff sensor came loose and needed to be clipped back in its holder. More than likely it is something simple on both locos. Maybe a short had happened and lost its programing.
I’m looking at a manual for a Paragon 2 4-4-6-4 and the chuff volume CV is 155. The range given for this is 0 to 255 with a default value of 128 (increasing number louder). I’m surprised that you needed to increase the chuff volume. The darn thing was too loud at the 128 setting.
There is also a CV 133 called sound unit master volume (volume at startup; higher number is louder). This has a range of 0-128. I don’t know if this controls all the sounds at startup, or just the ones that would occur without any action on your part. Where do you have this set?
And before I sent anything back, and if all else had failed, I think I’d try re-setting the decoder by following the manual procedure. This should get you back to the default values.
Kind of weird that 2 chuff sensors would go bad the same time. I’d start with the paragon 2. First set CV8 to 8 for a reset to see if it returns. If not then press the reset button inside the loco. Also ask yourself if anything was done around the time before it happened?
I’m pretty sure we tried a re-set but I’ll ask my buddy. I thought about the reset button inside as a last resort (opening it up.)
We tried to increase the CV just to see if we could spring it to life after failing at other approaches.
We may have only been working with the CVs for the chuff and did not reset. I’ll ask him and I’ll try a reset with the throttle. He used a programming track. Maybe I’ll try it in OPS mode on the main and see if anything changes (?).
The only thing I did with both locos was store them in a nice dry drawer for a couple of months while I laid track. Thanks for the help. Randy and David B. (If you see this…) Any other ideas?
I’ll try with NCE at a friends tomorrow just for kicks. I’m using a DT400 simplex throttle at home.
I know about the Broadway limited forum/site but wanted to check with my trusted cohorts here, lst.
My wife would like my attention, so I’ll check messages again later tonight. Thanks!
According to the manual, you should be able to reset the decoders (at least the Paragon 2) by changing a CV. The button in the tender should be the last resort.
And you will have better luck re-programming the main. If you were using the program track you might not have had enough “ummph” and might not have been actually changing any of the values.
The engine will make an audible sound every time you make a CV value change that the engine accepts. The sound the one I’m playing with is either a coupler clank or a reverse gear (I’m not a steam guy so I don’t know the engine sounds). Did you hear anything from the engine when you made the CV changes?
I may have had some late night success with a reset to factory defaults. Either my buddy didn’t try a reset or we didn’t have it up to enough speed on a 3’ section of programming track to kick in the chuff.
At the time we were trying to change the address from 03 the cab number. He was using the Soundtraxx clip on booster.
The chuff was already absent. I’m assuming that since our starting point was 03 and that we were trying to give it a cab # address (before we tackled restoring the chuff) that we never reset to default settings.
My wife is sleeping on the other side of the wall so can’t test much 'til morning. but the chuffs start after getting up to some speed. I thought I remembered them starting as soon as the loco moved but I’ll read up to see what CV might start them at a slower speed later. I’ll try a Factory Reset with the Paragon Hudson too and see what happens in the a.m. I’m still very new to DCC.
I guess I thought that a reset was only necessary if one lost all motor control or all sound. I guess a short or running a turnout the wrong way (even with PSX breakers) can “rob” the programming of only one sound? (Chuff in this case). Am I understanding that aspect correctly? Thanks guys. I’ll let you know if everything is restored tomorrow or need more trouble shooting. It’s a great relief to have instant help as I learn.
There’s probably also a CV that sets the operation of the chuff sensor as well, since chuff sensors can be on the wheel or on the motor shaft - I’m pretty sure the ones in question are ont he motor shaft - and si require different chuffs per revolution. On steam locos withotu chuff sensors a little momentum in CV3 allows the sounds to start before the loco moves.
A reset is good for fixing anythign that gets messd up, as it is supposed to reset ALL CVs to factory defaults. So if you’ve messed up function mappings, or sound options, or whatever, a reset can get you back to a known starting point. The defaults may not be exactly correct for what you want, but if you’ve changed a bunch of things and don’t rememebr exactly what, or fat fingered a CV number and changed something you didn’t even realize you changed, the reset will get you back. This is also why DecoderPro is good. No need to try an interpret a 200 page manual full of CV values.
If the chuffs do start as the engine speeds up, it probably means everything is correct as is.
I’m not a steam expert so I can’t explain this in precise technical terms, but steam engines when starting often have more of a long ‘whoooosh’ sound, as a lot of steam is being forced into the cylinders and the excess is blowing off (from sort of like a safety valve) rather than going up the stack. It takes a few revolutions of the wheels before the ‘chuffs’ start.
A couple of my BLI engines with QSI sound simulate that, so you don’t hear the chuffs when you start really slow, it has to get up to a certain speed before the whooosh sound is replaced with individual chuff-chuff-chuffs. It could be that’s what’s happening here. Unfortunately most sound decoders don’t bother with that, so many people probably have never heard it before, especially if they haven’t had much exposure to real steam in operation.
Depending on how many sounds the decoder can make at the same time, BOTH sounds should be there at startup, both the cylinder cocks venting steam and water (water in the cylinders is bad!) and the chuff as the valves change position. Once the cylinders warm up and the steam is no longer condensing the cylinder cocks are closed and the rushing steam sound stops and the chuffs become more obvious. This isn’t really speed dependent but that’s the easiest way to implement it in a decoder. Sometimes there is also a manual function. Loksound does this very well as you start out slowly. Steam escape, wheels start turning, then a chugg underneatht he steam, and as speed increases the steam sound stops and just the chuffs are heard.
I think that sometimes these things have a mind of their own. The Paragon 2 4-4-6-4 I mentioned earlier is not mine, but belongs to a clubmember. He said that he had had the engine running okay, but then had not used it for awhile. When he got around to running it again he couldn’t get it to run on the long address. It would run on default address 3, with all the sounds, etc, but it would not accept a change to a long address.
He said he had fooled with the thing for two weeks, had gone through the CV reset change several times, and had removed the tender shell to use the push button reset as well. I offered to bring it home and see if I could get it to do what he wanted. I’m not an expert by any definition, but I started to wonder if he had had locked the decoder, and went so far as to download the appropriate pages from the technical manual on the BLI website.
Then I put the engine on the track and tried to run it on address 3 and it was happy as a clam. So, wanting to see if I could change the address, I did the programming on the main thing, and the DCC system asked me what long address I wanted. I put that in and tried it, and away the engine went. He has programmed engines before, so I don’t know what he was doing different. He has a PowerCab that he can use on a test track in his shop, and has a PowerPro to run his railroad. I have a PowerPro, so there should be no difference in the way the DCC systems handled the programming.
Anyway, it was fun to call him up and say “what-chu talkin about, Willis?” and then blow the horn and ring the bell into his answering machine.
It’s taking a few revolutions (haven’t counted yet) before the chuff kicks in. But at least they SEEM to be back.
I tired adjusting CV 39 function mapping for F5 increasing magnitude. No change noted so far. Also pressing F6 isn’t making any changes. All other sounds seem to be there. I do not get an answering beep for the chuff CV receipt.
I’m heading over to a friend’s bigger layout to give the Cab Forward a run and see if the chuffs behave and how they do.
I’ve had no luck with the Paragon Hudson J1e yet.
I’ll get back to you all this evening with a report. I wish the DCC/CV thing wasn’t often so…finicky!
Is there any way to know if the decoder IS locked?
I’m getting some faith that I can EVENTUALLY work this out with your generous help but…we’ll see. Thanks again. Your guys are a good stress reliever!
I AM hearing steam release sounds before the CF travels up to a reasonable speed. I WISH I could remember if that was the case when I last ran it a couple of moths ago.
My opinion right now is that you should take a step back, get the decoder reset, and see what the engine does without changing anything else, with the possible exception of CV133, sound unit master volume. I’d adjust this to a value that allows you to stay in the room with the unit without breaking your eardrums.
I don’t know why you are changing CV 39. CV 39 on the Paragon 2 instruction booklet I have (page 17) seems to be associated with F6, not F5. And unless you have a different set of instructions the default for F5 is to activate the blow down sound when the engine is stopped, and increase the chuff volume every time it is pressed when the engine is moving. There is an associated CV 204, chuff magnitude increment, that dictates the magnitude of change for each press of F5.
The F6 default description says that it is water fill/increase chuff magnitude when the engine is moving. However, when you read the accompanying paragraph, it says that “pressing F6 when the engine is moving decreases the chuff volume with each press”. Obviously there is a conflict. I think it unlikely that both F5 and F6 will increase the chuff volume. I suspect that F6 is the decrease volume function key. There is an associated CV 205, chuff magnitude decrement, that “dictates the magnitude change per F6 press”.
What’s that you say? You don’t find CV 204 and 205 on the list of CV in the booklet. Well, neither did I. But they are shown on pages 158 and 159 of the Paragon 2 Steam Technical Reference Manual,&n
As I mentioned in the earlier post, if the chuffs don’t start right away, but the hiss of steam venting can be heard, your decoder is doing what it’s supposed to. Cheaper decoders don’t have that ability and just start out with chug-chug-chug. I have a BLI 2-10-4 that works exactly like what you’re describing.
However, if you don’t like that feature, try setting CV 3 (momentum) to zero. It seems to me that I read somewhere in the instructions that there has to be a “value other than zero” in the momentum CV for that sound to work…but I might be remembering it wrong. [%-)]
But before you change it, does your engine sound like these examples??
Some of the newer decoders BLI is using (newer as in, since 2007…) have the automatic open cylinder c.ocks. So, the first several revolutions of the drivers will only elicit a hiss. Then the chuff starts. This was first evident to me when I replaced all but one QSI decoder chip in the summer of 2007 when QSI was able to offer their upgrades with BEMF and new sound files. I noticed it in the chip for the Pennsy 2-10-4, for example, and my latest engines, the PCM Y6b, UP TTT-6, and others all have this initial hissing prior to onset of the chuff as the engine rolls out.
Thanks for whatever help you can offer.