I have been more or less oblivious of the prices of the new HO brass steam locomotives.
I was under the impression that the new steamers were in the $1,000 to $1,500 range. Was I ever wrong. Today I made a point the check a number of the manufacturers and the pricing for mid size the larger Northern type locomotives is easily in the $2,200 to $2,700 range. Mind you these new locomotives are now DCC and many have sound in that last range.
The brass steam locomotives I have acquired in the last few months are either Canadian or Great Northern locomotives. I have paid in the range of $350 to $500 for some of these locomotives and for $500 I have been buying older PFM locomotives many of which have had their open frame motors replaced and also have sound decoders installed. The price of new brass passenger cars really threw me, some are $2,500 each.
I certainly am aware of the going rate for the older PFM locomotives from the 1970’s, many of which have been upgraded with DCC and also sound.
As I admitted, I was far off the mark for the new HO brass steam locomotives. There is no way that I would even consider paying that type of money for the new locomotives.
This leads me to ask the question what affect has the new HO brass model railroad.equipment had on the old 1970’s brass. As many people skipping the old stuff completely? Has the presence of the new stock made the old stock significantly less valuable that it was, say a couple of years ago?
Depends on the item, better plastic has had a bigger impact as has DCC as some don’t like dealing with converting the older stuff. There are some real bargains out there in the older brass but some very nice looking engines run like you know what!
I think there is more than just one reason for used brass to be relatively “cheap” when compared to new stock. First of all, today´s market is much less of a brass market than in the 1970´s, as there are way more quality “plastic” locos available from the mainstream manufacturers. Second, it is more of a Diesel market these days. Third, there is an abundance of used brass in the market, keeping the price level low. Fourth, with money being tight as it is nowadays, the general price level for used stock is low.
Like you, I am shocked by the prices for new stock. In the 1970´s, such a loco would have been in the $ 150 to $ 200 range. I don´t know what that equates to in today´s money, applying a general rate of inflation over the years, but it seems to be a heck more than what “normal” people would ever be able to spend on a loco. DCC and sound adds only about a hundred bucks to the price, so that can´t be the real reason. As manufacturing brass locos is quite labor intensive, the risen wage level in those countries (mainly Korea, less in China), where brass locos are being manufactured, is to be held accountable for the increase.
Along with a lot of hurting investement portfolios and the resultant loss of disposable income, many of the collectors out there are dying and flooding the market with good used brass, much of it built in the last 10 years. Many of these collections are large and varied. It means the market has soured except for new limited runs of prized and rarer runs of brass locomotives and rolling stock.
I got a Sunset brass CPR 2-10-4 with QSI for just over $1100 ten months ago. Sunset may not offer the best quality brass, but it sure looks good to me. Division Point and Precision Scale Craft are still selling new issues in the $2000 range, and my guess is that the runs are smaller. The Sunset run for my loco was very small, probably fewer than 200 locomotives.
Forget about the market. I don’t care if a $2,500 retail price engine is available at $1000. The price doesn’t matter because I won’t be buying it at any price, unless it becomes cheaper than today’s plastic, hybrid or diecast.
Many of us who used to play with brass are just out of it entirely.
It costs too much and generally speaking does not even perform as well as the limited production plastic, hybrid or diecast engines available today.
I’m 44, with 2 kids who will need some kind of post-high school education. Even years from now when those kids are gone, I have no intention of ever returning to brass models. I tried recently, and got burned, and that’s it–never again.
I have a few brass engines, only because I can not obtain the desired locomotive in plastic.
The roads I am now collecting are CPR and GN. I have a few plastic steam engines but the majority of engines for these roads are not avilable in plastic. I have bought a few add on parts to modify some of the plastic steamers but only a few conversions are possible.
I am quite happy with buying 25 to 35 year old brass and even at that age these engines have as much detail as a few of the new plastic steam locomotives made my Bachmann and BLI and Walthers.
Currently most are DC, but eventually all will be converted to a can motor and DCC and some will also receive sound. However, I refuse to spend $1,500 and up for any of the new brass steamers.
The price of new brass is unbelievable!![:S] I was looking at Division Point’s N&W Y6a and Y6b. The detail is fantastic! But, they have neither DCC nor sound. Not that having these items included would convince me to buy them. By the way, the price was about $2700 per locomotive. I believe that the runs of these locomotives is more limited than those of locomotives built in the 1970’s. I did find a United N&W Y6a for about $1000.00. It does not have operating lights, nor does it have a can motor, DCC or sound. But, those items can be “fixed” for a much cheaper price than the new brass. I want to run the locomotives on my layout. I admit, that my layout has to have enough scenery or better put, NO areas that if there is a derailment, that the locomotive will “find” the floor.[2c]
With your name UP 4-12-2, are you not in line for the BLI Brass Hybrid 4-12-2 ??? Just thought I would ask about the name and the coming item. I am in for two of those but have to admit to having a few of those 4-12-2’s already.
Speaking of low price brass, the last two or three years have been banner years for me buying good used bargains in the older brass market. Time after time, I have found low price items that I consider bargains and have stopped purchasing new brass completely. I find that waiting two years after the so called really expensive models come out in a time when they can be purchased for about20 to 25% less than the original price. This has happened with some of the W&R really expensive models recently compared to the high prices they were when they were new. I would guess some one needs money!
The price of brass models really depends on who makes them and how many they make. I seem to remember Sunset making a very nice brass 2-8-0 a few years ago I think for $650, and maybe $800 with sound. A lot of the diecast steam engines cost that much now, and modern brass has better, more specific detail and some of the best quality mechanisms in existance.
I have a BLI Hybrid Dreyfuss Hudson. It had some running issues out of the box, which have all been corrected with simple adjustments, and it is one of the most beautifully detailed and quietest running engines I’ve got. And it was only $300 instead of $3,000.[:D]
I like getting the old, “junky” brass too (Alco, Soho, early Tenshodo…). Tinkering with it and making it smooth running and good looking is fun for me. At this moment, I have a Ken Kidder Porter 2-6-0 waiting for me at home to turn into something awesome.[:D]
The new DVP price for the Y6a models is no increase over the DVP Z8 models that came out three years ago. In fact, the last Challenger Models 4-6-6-4 I purchased almost eight years ago had a price list of almost the same amount. The low volume of models drives up the prices since their production is very low. Yes, it is a lot of money and for my money, I purchased the BLI/PCM Y6 with sound and it runs very nice. Those models look good overall and the cost is very low. Good low production brass has been expensive for the last eight years at least. All of the PSC NP 4-8-4’s have a list price of over 2000 each, but most dealers sold them for $1700 to $1800. I bargained a few of the A4 and A5 locomotives for a little less, but feel they are worth the money.
I had two of the MTH 4-12-2’s for awhile, along with a Challenger and a pair of BLI Y-6B’s (latest version) and loved 'em all. However, I was trying to keep my youngest son interested in trains and he said he was bored with steam…
So I sold them and bought diesels.
In any case, my youngest son is about done playing with trains, and nowadays, with sports, allergy meds for the kids, other family needs, etc. there just is not money for me to even buy the high priced plastic engines let alone brass or hybrids.
I just don’t have the cash and will not for many years. Even as a licensed P.E. in civil engineering, wages have been too flat while everything else goes up in cost. My high fallutin’ engine days are over.
No, I have no BLI 4-12-2’s on order. Did at one time, but cancelled my reservation…
The most expensive engine in my current roster was $110, and I doubt I’ll be finding operable brass for that price th
Brass has traditionally been the gold standard in the HO and O gauge worlds. A sign that a modeler has “arrived” and has always had a certain cachet associated with it.
I have a few older brass engines. The last I bought in 1978, save for two I bought off e-bay this year for ~$250.00 each. I was never a brass collector and I never understood “collecting brass” for brasses sake.
Brass was originally bought for its matchless detail and attention to same at a time when plastic was just acceptable or passable. Even the best brass steamers of the old days were never stellar “low speed crawlers”. Motor and DCC conversion of older brass steamers is a must if you expect not to be laughed at by modern MRs.
I can’t see modern brass as a viable entity in today’s world save for those few MRs who think that $1500.00+ for an engine is a mere trifle, a pitance that will not affect any sort of budget they may have.
Plastic is getting to be every bit as good as brass, detail wise, in the finest plastic examples sold. Many of the premier modern steamers are cast or formed metal bodies including tenders and sell in the under $400.00 range with DCC and sound included. So, you get the metal weight and feel, full detail with DCC and Sound today for what an old analog DC brass loco sold for in the 70’s or 80’s.
I think brass will always be around, but in low run numbers, compared to the brass of yesteryear. Such products will command prices that are for only the super rich collectors. I always wondered what the ratio of NOS brass collectors pieces to user painted and decorated models was. Many buyers never intended to paint their brass.
My suggestion is that if you are a brass guy or would like a couple of examples, go on E-bay and take advantage of the low prices on old brass locos temporarily invading the place. (especially the terrible examples of user painted locos - they go c
We both received the Sunset Selkirk and I do not look down on the overall quality of the Sunset model. They are considered by many to be of lower quality, but mine runs very well and like yours, has the QSI sound. I did get a bargain on mine but would still have paid a lot more if I had not been promised the low price a year prior to that time. The price jumped up on the Selkirk as the Z6 Challenger I purchased only a year prior was only $950 with sound. I was surprised at the increase since I was expecting the Selkirk to be about $800.
I had purchased the NP A3, A4 and the Z6 also from Sunset and they both run extremely well and have the QSI sound installed. The A3 has the wrong tender, because Sunset decided to use the same tender for the Z6 on the A3. The A3 and A4 were priced at $600 or so with sound at most dealers. The Sunset A4 does not match the details on my PSC A4 and A5’s, but it cost at least $1000 less than either one of the PSC models. In my book, that is a bargain since both the A4 and the Z6 have sound installed and they run well and look nice overall. Anytime I can save a $1000 on one locomotive over another one, that is a factor that is hard to ignore.
The sunset models in my opinion are good running layout models to be used. On the other hand, the PSC and DVP models that I own are more museum type display items since some of those will not run well on a lot of layouts unless the radius is above 40" or so. I know that having that much detail around the trailing trucks do not allow the proper swing for tight curves.
Brass has traditionally been the gold standard in the HO and O gauge worlds. A sign that a modeler has “arrived” and has always had a certain cachet associated with it.
It is true brass was said to be a standard especially in the Narrow Gauge world, but tha
Hi, CZ. I am happy with my Selkirk as well, but I may have been mistaken about its quality. I got the impression that Sunset was at best second-tier in the brass world.&nb
I’ve been acquiring brass locos for about twelve years now and have watched some of my friends deal in the newer production pieces. My experience is that the older brass engines, “classic brass” in the parlance of the trade, were made more with operation in mind. That is, they are really rugged and have a lot of metal in them, especially in the frames and boilers. Once fine tuned they give excellent service and run tirelessly for hours both at home and on my club’s layout. Sunset brass really began to take off as production shifted from Japan to Korea. The detail is very nice and the price was quite reasonable at first. But…the engines were very light and the fine detail was really delicate. The early can motors supplied were prone to burning out suddenly, an odd state of affairs since the engines wouldn’t pull a settin’ hen off her nest. Now the really new stuff is coming out and they’re just about perfect with splendid finishes, exquisite detail and hatches and journal boxes that open and close. Who could ask for anything more. But… the price and the low production runs surely indicate that these jewels are intended for a small strata of very wealthy collectors for whom cost is no object. For me, the fun is finding and “adopting” an older piece, repainting it and overhauling the drive train ( I often retain the open frame motor ) and then running her 'till the wheels fall off which has actually never yet happened! I’ve paid as little as $40.00 but usually in the low hundreds for my engines and, if the detail is a little clunky by recent standards, nobody notices when they’re running past your nose.
I’m pretty much in the same camp as Jim–I’ve been running brass locos since about 1964. One of the reasons, of course, is that the prototype railroads I model (Rio Grande and Southern Pacific) have little to no steam available in modern plastic. Okay, SP has a fair selection,but you can’t build a representative locomotive roster around JUST GS, AC and MT locos. Ergo: Lots of brass, most of it bought used, and most of it from what might be called the “Golden Age” of PFM, Westside, Balboa and Akane. I don’t think any of my older brass has set me back more than about $350 or $400, and as Jim says–and I agree–most of the older brass was really built to RUN, not just sit on a shelf and be admired.
Some of my ‘newer’ brass–Key, Sunset, etc., has been worked on fairly extensively, re-weighted and re-balanced and in some cases re-motored with sturdier can motors, and runs pretty smoothly. Okay, not taking a full minute to creep from tie to tie (but that would bore me silly anyway), but with enough good slow speed control that I’m not embarrassed to run slow ‘drag’ freights. And everything I’ve got (yes, even a Westside SP 4-10-2) has no problem negotiating my 34" minimum radius.
I do have ONE ‘new’ brass (3 years old) and that’s a Precision Craft F-81 Rio Grande 2-10-2 that is an absolute honey of a loco–beautifully detailed, smooth running and probably very close to DCC ready, should I ever choose to convert (not likely at my age and with my extensive fleet, simply because of finances) . The price back then was about $1300, and I saved up because I KNEW that I had to have that particular loco. Haven’t regretted it at all. But I think that’s probably the only ‘new’ brass I’ll ever own–even though I’d love a Sunset Z-8, LOL!
And like Jim, the lack of ‘fine’ detail on my older brass doesn’t bother me a bit, especially since I’m viewing my layout more from a ‘helicopter’ v
I have followed Jim’s articles in the “NG Gazette” and especially his work and tips on HOn3 brass to DCC conversion early this year or late last year, can’t remember just now.
I am currently working on two older brass K-28’s picked up cheap off e-bay into some sort of resurrection within DCC using the Tsunami sound decoders. Not an easy task, but there are no DCC, HOn3 K-28’s in the RTR market now and not likely to be in the near future. And…I gotta’ have some K-28’s, (sports model), for my Paradox Urivan & Placerville road.
While I lust for a brass 2-10-4 Selkirk (T1a preferably, but wouldn’t turn down a Sunset T1c) at a reasonable price, the only brass I am likely to own is an inherited Ken Kidder 0-4-0. :)
