- Those of you that have read some of my previous posts know that I am falling in love with brass. The problem with the new brass is the price.[tdn]
- The older brass models are much less expensive but there seems to be a lot of work to get them running well. Some need to be regeared others need a new motor while others need both. This runs the price up!![:'(]
- What do you think? Are the new brass locomotives more reliable?
- Would it be less expensive over all to buy older brass locomotives knowing that one is going to have to spend some money and may be hire someone to fix the locomotive?[8D]
Well buying old brass is the only way I can get some prototypes for my Western Pacific railroad. Some need new can motors and I just regeared one. They all get Tsunami. Everyone has turned out to be a nice runner. On a few I have had to do a little extra on the wheel pickup to ensure good conductivity. If I had to pay someone to do it I might have second thoughts.
Speaking as someone who relies on old brass (1970s-80s vintage), I can say that in my opinion, older brass is the more cost-effective of the options. A new brass model can run up to, around $1,200. Whereas an old brass model would be around the $300-400 mark. $35 each for a new gearbox and motor, brings the cost up to $470, worst case.
Having the knowledge and tools to do the job is another thing. You’ll need at least some sort of wheel puller and a standards gauge to ensure the wheels are correctly gauged, and a quarterer to ensure smooth running. One other thing I’ve found with old brass is that the design is rather simple - often it’s just a motor, gearbox and chassis with a shell on top, which means that with the right tools, it’s easy enough to figure out how to get them to perform up to your standards. Some of the videos linked in my signature show done-up brass locomotives in action - everything except the K-27s.
Hope this helps,
tbdanny
Older brass will still be less expensive most of the time, even with a new motor and gearbox. Depending on the quality and rarity, newer brass may be available for not much more than good older brass, but they usually run for double or more from what I’ve seen. A new motor and gearbox, if you look in the right places, won’t cost much more than $60 for a typical steam engine. A new motor is usually easy to install, and even a gearbox may not be too hard if you have a cheap wheel puller.
I would say it depends upon why you want the brass. Brass is the only way to get some locomotive models. The D&RGW 3 cylinder M-75 class comes to mind. But is it mainly for show, run occasionally, run normally, or is it run into the ground? I sold all my “old” brass about a decade ago when the higher quality die cast and plastic started coming out. I sold it for all the reasons you mention, need re-motored, need re-gears, need wheels to be quartered, need new electrical pickups, need detail updated and hence repainted. Definitely not worth it in my book. Also the detail on the older models is poor compared to today’s die-cast. I have never run a “new” brass long enough to know if they are reliable in the sense of running for hours and hours and day after day on end.
Some of the older brass, 60s, 70s, and 80s are tremendous bargains by todays standards and certainly are a lot better deal in my book than the “new” brass for a lot of reasons.
But…it’s like a lot of things, if you can’t work on them yourself your best bet is to buy the new RTR stuff with the warrentee. You have to be your own mechanic but that can be very enjoyable as well if you want to go that route. I have rebuilding brass locos ever since I got into HO in the mid 60s and have always enjoyed it. Some brands are much better than others though so it helps to know what you’re looking at when you go to buy. Of course even the best brass loco can be a problem if someone has gotten to it and screwed it all up, which has happened a lot unfortunately.
There are a lot of variables and right now brass is on the rise again, probably because the new cast stuff is costing as much as the older brass in a lot of instances.
I think a lot of people are finally starting to realize that it takes a lot more to build a brass loco than it does to assemble parts. That’s why Ferrari’s cost more than Fords, one is handbuilt and the other isn’t.
Mark
I think if you have deep pockets and can afford new brass then, yes it will probably run better right out of the box than something that is 35 years old. OTOH, is price is a concern then your best bet is probably RTR plastic. I would not recommend getting older brass unless you have the skills and patience to work on them. I own 7-8 brass steamers and I love them all. Some are from United, some from Sunset, Westside and Alco. All get painted or if painted, stripped and then repainted because usually the finish isn’t up to my standards. All are going to be DCC so all get new can motors. This solves the motor isolation issue. Usually I try to keep the gearboxes if they are decent because regearing a steamer is a process and requires very specific tools. A quarterer 2 from NWSL will run 50 bucks alone. Old brass is only a bargain if you enjoy tinkering with them. Of course, you know this.[:^)]
Chris
I’ve bought a variety of brass steamers over the years and I’ve found that the older brass can usually be made to run fairly well after a good cleaning and lubricating job. The newer brass, particularly Sunset models, are a bit light and so don’t pull very much train. Every once in a while I find myself stuck with a “hoodoo” engine, one that no amount of tinkering will get it to run reliably or for very long. The very new brass is extremely pricey and all that really fine detail makes them a little too delicate for handeling and running . Older brass is rugged but if you’re going to run it hard you have to watch for small screws working loose, expecially in the tender trucks. Working with gears and running gear can be a real challenge but you can’t learn to work with it if you don’t tear into it . That’s scary but when you actually manage to pull off a complicated repair there’s a considerable feeling of accomplishment.
Craig - To some of the replies you’ve already received, several expressing the same sentiments I have regarding old and new brass, let me also add a few further points for consideration.
There was a period in the early history of brass (60’s into the 70’s) where the models imported by certain manufacturers were more intended to be looked at than to run. In the days when I collected brass myself, I was informed by several brass dealers that certain of the pre-1980 models, again from certain companies, were really more than a bit far from replicating their prototypes, both in detail and sometimes even proportion.
I would ask if you have any experience in repairing and tinkering with brass locomotives? Yes, an old hand at this can pretty much fix any defect. But I wouldn’t envy the average hobbyist of today trying to accomplish same. Another consideration is soldering. Do you solder? Many times older models come with loose, or even missing, details that will need replacement and re-soldering. Likewise, many older models had poorly done solder joints on them that can be difficult to cover up with just paint. Appreciate too that there were even “kit” engines early in the history of brass from makers like Gem and Austin. The “quality” of these models rested with just who built them. And when you need to start thinking about out sourcing such repair work, you are generally talking significant money.
There really isn’t much comparison between the old brass and the new, in my opinion. Just as in every other aspect of the hobby, technology and quality has advanced dramatically in the manufacture of brass locomotives. A good manufacturer today usually provides museum quality, smoothly running, engines. Older examples are often far less pleasing. So, unless your choices are totally governed by price; if you lack re-motoring and gear box replacement experience; if you are not familiar with soldering; if you have no
The next question is, are you wanting brass diesels or steamers? I have slowly replaced my newer plastic diesels (Athearn RTR/Genesis for the most part) with Overland brass versions made in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I have developed a distaste for the very fragile plastic handrails and plastic grab irons that the newer plastic diesels have. I can install DCC, add additional weight in my OMI brass diesels along with sound with ease. I do try to buy them already painted as that is one modeling task that I am not good at if it has more than one color or complicated striping. The hand rails and all the rest of the fine details hold up to handling and being transported to the local club layout much easier than my newer plastic engines did. I also have a few older steamers, mostly PFM/United models, which normaly run fine, just needing a can motor for ease of DCC installation. I also have a nice little NWSL USRA 0-6-0 that already came with a Sagami motor and NWSL gear box from the importer. Brass operation is very much the tinkeriers hobby. Most need to be weighted to pull trains of decent length, but this is easily done with sheet lead ect. Its best to buy from a known distributer like Caboose Hobbies ect, they can assist in which models operate well and ones that are best left to a collector’s display case. For the most part you cannot go wrong with anything from PFM/United, Tenshodo, Westside, Sunset, Precision Scale, Overland Models. All brands have had thier duds over the years. The first years of Korean models, like the first years of the Japanese models are loaded with models that looked good for that era but had running issues, soldering issues ect. New brass prices are out of sight with Division Point and OMI diesels in the 800-1300 doller price range per engine!!! I gave $350 for OMI Southern GP50 that has a museum quality paint job. I just added DCC/Sound and now have a really super nice
How much brass do you intend on accumulating and how much work are you willing to do yourself? If you don’t have the tools and/or the skills, are you willing to acquire them knowing that tools cost money and the acquisition of skills takes time.
This guy: http://daveayers.com/Modeling/DTAModels.htm charges $35/hour (plus parts and shipping) to repair brass. That can run up the cost pretty fast for any individual item depending on its initial condition.
Mark Schutzer has done quite a few brass repairs/upgrades himself and presented a brass clinic at the 2006 PCR regional convention. Here are the slides from the presentation: http://schutzer.net/Brass_Clinics/RebuildingBrass2006std.pdf It’s not a structured walkthrough, but it does give you a pretty idea of what tools you’ll need (not cheap) and does outline some of the issues you might face.
You might want to rummage around Mark’s site as he’s pretty good about describing what he h
Without trying to get into another “whizzing” contest here one thing you will need to remember is that “most” of the Korean brass is “cold soldered” versus “hot soldered” on just about 100% of the Japanese brass.
Basically cold soldered means “parts” fall off in your hands, not something you will enjoy on a painted locomotive.
As far as the Japanese brass goes, usually it’s only fault by today’s standard is not having a “can” motor, a relatively easy fix actually. As for the gearboxes I have had very few of the older Japanese brass engines that required a gearbox change and those that did were usually the result of someone running them without any lubrication, a condition which will ruin most anything.
As far as “brass kits”, Tenshodo produced a few back in the 1950s to avoid the tarriffs but that was changed so that didn’t last. Some of the stoutest old brass locos I’ve ever owned were old Tenshodo’s. They ran smoothly out of the box and still do to this day. As I sit here I’m looking at a 1958 vintage Tenshodo Santa Fe 2-10-4, it still runs flawlessly with it’s original open frame motor and factory gearbox and has a “jillion” miles on it and still running strong. I’m trying to decide if I want to “can motor” it and give it a repaint or just leave it the way it is and retire it to the display case, it’s earned a rest.
I also have some PFM/CROWN N&W Y6b’s that have been “can motored” and look as good and run as good as most anything that is being produced today, these can still be found for $500-800 per copy, are rock solid and will pull up track they’re so powerful.
So don’t let “old” deter you, just because it’s “new” doesn’t mean it’s better, it just means it’s newer and probably made cheaper and costs more.
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