This is crazy, because a few ultra rich Northern Illinois folks complain, lets develop a totally new rail line in Wisconsin to speed things up instead of using the existing Amtrak route.
The new route would use CP RR line West of the Amtrak Station but would proceed North along the former Milwaukee Road North Line instead of veering West on the West Line as the Empire Builder now does I beileve this route was last used by C&NW Passenger Trains to get to the lines to Fond Du Lac and Sheboygan, etc. after they abandoned the Lakefront line North of Milwaukee. However in this case the commuter train would terminate in NW Milwaukee before the ex-C&NW connection.
South of the Amtrak station they would use the former C&NW Lake Line through St. Francis and Racine and connect with Metra at Kenosha. They would still go ahead with the expansion to 10 trains each direction on the Amtrak route in addition to this, eventually…I don’t think it is a substitute, they just think they can get there quicker with the new route.
I like that Aldermans thinking… quote is paraphrasing and is probably not exact: “We are spending $4 Billion already, what difference is a little more…”…lol. Cha-Ching!
It would be either WisDOT or they would create an RTA like other states have done. They have talked about SEWPREC or whatever, establishing a RTA in the past because this is beyond what one county can afford and it is too regional I think for the State to pay for it via WisDOT.
North Texas is on the edge of creating a RTA for further expansion of commutter rail as DART seems to have reached it’s limit of willing cities that want to contribute. So Dallas needs an RTA to get past that blokage to reach cities further out that want service. Also they want to switch from Light Rail to either DMU or heavy Rail METRA like service for the farther out communities because according to DART, Light Rail is far more expensive per mile than a METRA type service or a DMU type service. Go figure because I would think a METRA type service would be more expensive than Light Rail.
That really brings up a host of questions.Construction cost for heavy rail probably more unless on a mixed use rail line. Butoperating costs may be less over the long term ( 100 years )as heavy rail does not have to deal as much with operating in streets ?Ex****pect each location will have different metrics ?
Sun rail and TriRail certainly costs less by using former CSX tracks. But a location such as Phoenix with light rail in different streets had no possibility to build heavy rail on proposed routes so light rail will have the higher operating costs.
Look at the Hartford Line in Connecticut as a similar service model. I have always thought the Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee ex-C&NW line is a natural transit corridor that will take some pressure off the Amtrak Hiawatha line. When Amtrak was formed, C&NW argued it’s Chicago to Milwaukee line was commuter rather than an intercity service, thus not to be considered part of the proposed national route system. That was a poor transportation decision at that time to cut it back to Kenosha. They need to establish an funding agency to get this done!
I read the article again, and it was actually the Illinois Attty. Gen. William Scott, that argued the Chicago-Milwaukee trains were a glorified commuter run and still required permission to end them to be obtained from the Interstate Commerce Commission or the Illinois Commerce Commission. Well, back then Wisconsin wasn’t going to get involved with funding, and Amtrak wasn’t going to run two parallel lines. C&NW got their way.
My observation of Light Rail vs TRE rail at least in the Dallas Area is Dart builds lots of Concrete flyovers over busy roads instead of using RR Crossings (grades are pretty steep), in the City they already have one subway / tunnel (2-3 miles long). Adding to the costs, double track, reverse CTC, double crossovers, usually top of the line crossing gates and crossing booms at major street crossings. DART Trainsets are all bought new…I think from SIEMENS, all DART stations are new. Yes then you have the overhead electrical. DART built to 70 mph standards in the suburbs, have clocked trains going that fast via parallel highway, though I have no idea what the speed limit is. DART employees are actually paid transit system employees and DART has it’s own police force. DART track is exclusively for DART no freight operations so far.
TRE, normal RR crossings, though they seem to be moving to quad gates, limited flyovers, reuse of existing RR right of way, started as single track but now slowly extending to double track. Used equipment from GO Transit. Signaling system looks like a mixture of legacy and new. Not a lot of track crossovers when there are two tracks. Some stations are nothing more than a shed. TRE crews are all Herzog Contrractors for the most part. Not sure about their small shops complex, South of DFW Airport. TRE shares track with existing freight railroads…BNSF, Dallas Garland and Northeastern (DGNO).
Single track from Kenosha to St. Francis (Kenosha sub); all sidings tore out; all signal systems removed; track mostly jointed rail barely good enough for 40mph.
However, on the plus side, the Kenosha sub tracks pass thru communities that would likely benefit (St. Francis, Cudahy, South Milwaukee, Oak Creek, Racine). In addition, the ROW was once double-track, so much of the original roadbed is still in place.
Quite a pricey chunk of track to bring up to 79mph + PTC + signals, etc…
Perhaps the new trains could use the Union Pacific’s Milwaukee sub from Milwaukee to Bain (Kenosha county). From Bain the trains would have to turn east and traverse the Farm sub from Bain to Kenosha, where they could turn right and head south on Metra’s tracks.
Of course, the tracks on the Farm sub thru Kenosha are 10mph, no signals, few protected crossings, although welded rail was laid a few years ago and seems in good shape.
Believe it or not WisDOT has the UP Milwaukee Sub as a potential future host of Canadian Pacific Frieght Trains and turning it into a joint UP / CP line for freight only. Thats if they continue above the 10 RT frequency of Amtrak Chicago to Milwaukee Trains or attempt to raise the speed above 110 mph.
WisDOT wants the CP Railway Chicago to Milwaukee route for itself and Amtrak at some point and has stated as much in long range future forecasts. If that ever happens CP will charge a kings ransom for the track…you can bet on that and rerouting the traffic and laying of new rail would also cost quite a bit of money. Though it would reduce congestion on the METRA tracks a little. Moving CP freights to a new Muskego Yard bypass and away from the Amtrak Depot is just phase I.
BTW, also interesting they have talked about moving the Amtrak Depot in Milwaukee, further North up to a location North of Wisconsin Avenue or even building a second Depot along the ex-C&NW approaches to the former Lakefront Depot but stopping short of Wisconsin Ave.
That last idea has a lot of merit, especially when you figure in the Summerfest grounds. Also,the C&NW old line must be one of the most densely populated urban corridors in the country without rail passenger service. If Wisconsin spent the kind of money that Conneticut is spending on the Springfield line, we would be back in business!
Many moons ago there was talk of making the CNW/CP tracks directional running for freight (i.e. northbound on the CNW, southbound on the CP). There was also discussions regarding single-tracking the CP, which is why for many years the CP had nice welded rail on track 2, but stick rail on track 1, as track 1 was to be used for sidings. Of course, the increase in freight business as well as Amtrak trains eventually ended such a silly idea.
I don’t see how the UP Milwaukee sub could handle the number of trains the CP runs through here. The Milwaukee sub is single-track from Gurnee to Airport, with only two sidings (Bain ond Siding K). It has only block signals, and the siding switches are all manual.
Perhaps if the Kenosha sub was brought up to modern standards, some of the UP freight could run there which would reduce the potential congestion on the Milwaukee sub, at least north of KO. I don’t have official numbers for train frequency on the CP’s C&M sub, but with my windows open at home (I live less than a mile from the CP and 3/4 mile from the UP), I hear trains going by at least every hour (CP trains + UP trains + Amtrak).
Sure, it could be done…all that is needed is lotsa $$$$.
Officially by the last WisDOT count it’s a little over one train an hour for CP or about 25-30 trains a day Chicago to Milwaukee. Plus 1-2 WSOR. So a Max of 32 Frieght trains on CP plus 7 Amtrak RT (soon to be 10 from what I read).
I think UP’s train count Chicago to Milwaukee is less than 17 if I am not mistaken but I forget what WisDOT stated it was exactly.
WSOR come in from the Milw NW line and branch off again using the West Line to Bensenville Yard. Though I spotted one WSOR train just South of Milwaukee, so maybe they also do Milwaukee-Bensenville as well depending on where they originate on WSOR system. I would think Madison or West would travel over NW line to Bensenville and Oshkosh / Horicon would use the North Line and travel Milwaukee to Bensenville. I have no real idea on WSOR…just guessing on routes they use.
C&NW had ATS on all or parts of their Lakefront line I thought at one point. I know it is gone now though probably.
At least from 1973 (when I hired out) there was no ATS north of Kenosha. I do not recall ever seeing any remnants of ATS inductors, so if it was pulled out, it must have happened years before '73.
That is interesting. Either I read it wrong OR they took it out before Amtrak was to consider which route to use but I am not sure, let me see if I can find the study again. Meanwhile check this out.
Apparently a MBA student at UWM did his dissertation on examining why KRM died as a proposal…interesting reading that remains politically neutral. Not sure how accurate his dissertation is but I like to read the politically neutral approaches to see how both sides screwed this KRM proposal up.
Walker gets slammed a lot in these forums for being anti-rail and he is actually NOT anti-rail. He is a political opportunist though that will take advantage of a political opportunity (agree totally with the analysis above). However, the Democrats shift all over the map on their support for rail (again evidenced in the above). So I think he did a good job at being neutral and pretty closely accurately reflects what happened with KRM.
According to the C&NW Historical Society website: C&NW installed ATS from Chicago to Wyeville, WI in 1952. It does not say when it was removed. I am guessing the late 1960’s but still searching because I am curious.
Here is where I read it. Now this is an older study on the KRM line from the 1990’s but it states ATS / ABS removed in 1987 Section starts on the bottom of page 41 and goes to page 43. It might be a typo and they might have meant 1967.