So… What impact will the new EPA rules for coal-fired power plants have on the railroads which depend on coal shipments for a large part of their traffic?
It is not “will” happen but “is” happening…this has been going on for a long, long time. And the answer is, as expected I’m sure, that there are fewer and fewer coal movements since the plants are closed or closing and there is a moratorium on building more. On the other hand, export coal is moving well to ports.
Henry,
Overall, I do not see any evidence that supports your claim that U.S. coal consumption has been declining for a long, long time.
From 1890 to 2005, U.S. coal production has been going up overall, however there have been ups and downs in the overall trend. I am guessing that this is the first time in history that we have had a national policy to eliminate the use of coal, as has been put in place in the last few years.
In 1890, we used just under 200-million short tons, and in 2005, we used about 1,100-million short tons, which is the maximum level reached so far. Since 2005, our
I can count about a half dozen coal fired generating plants that have been or are in the process of being closed down within driving distance of my house… What used to be a parade of coal trains almost daily two years ago has become a quick glance maybe once a month of the Bow or Mt. Tom (don’t know which) inching through town. Coal production has been going up, yes, but our own consumption has been going down while exports have been going up.
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The EPA rules will have a negative impact on the whole economy by increasing the cost of energy. And this will affect on the economy will affect the railroads more than just the loss of coal traffic.
Actually with gas being cleaner and less expensive, the cost of electricity should be going down. Also the providers are buying more hydroelectric from Canada which is not from fossel fuel. The electric companies want to carry the electricty to you but not produce it. Similar to railroads which want to carry commodities long distances but not do yard or terminate services. Electric suppliers want you to buy your electricty from an electric generator and the local company will deliver it.
In an effort to smoke out a boogey man, you may be overlooking a really important economic factor. That being, according to the fine folks that provide juice for my computer say that the price of natural gas is making it more affordable to use than coal
Is your price dropping? The fine folks who mandated the renewable energy requirements for Minnesota promise us that it will make energy cheaper to get it from wind, solar, and biomass. It will put more money into everybody’s pocket. Sounds like a win-win. I wonder why they would have to mandate that people take a free lunch.
So, you mean to tell me that the electric company is not trying to switch more plants to use natural gas just because it’s cheaper? That there’s some other force more sinister than the all miighty dollar behind them trying to save money. Oh- the humanities!
Yes, I do think there is more than just cheap (for the time being) natural gas in the reasons behind utilities switching from coal. The tightening of emission regulations, not just for CO2, but also particulates, I think also enter into the equation.
Alliant Energy is switching their Marshalltown plant to natural gas. Just a few years ago they wanted to add another coal burning plant at that location. Nimby and environmentalist factions shot that idea down. Would’ve added more coal trains going there (My first job as a set-up conductor was spotting a coal train at that plant.) but instead we no longer have any.
Right now natural gas is cheap. There is trouble on the horizon, though. There is a small segment admantly opposed not only to the use of gas, but to the use of fracturing to get at some of the gas. There is a larger segment that only knows what it sees on TV or in the paper. Or worse, on the interenet. That small segment gets better PR so too many of the general public base their views on that skewed PR. I imagine that once most everyone has switched to natural gas for electricity, and even for use as motor fuels, the environmentalists will “win” and fracturing will come to an end. The price will skyrocket and everyone who uses electricity, cooks, heats or (if it should come to pass) fuel their vehicles with natural gas will pay thru the nose for it.
Jeff
Power companies providing electricity are in the throes of investing: investing money to make money and not produce and sell electricity. So, they either have or are getting rid of the generating part of the business concentrating on delivering. So, the generation plants are being closed or changed to gas or sold off to investors who will figure out what they are going to do when they figure out how to get money out of the system. Here in the east, some Spanish company is in control.
Many Americans have deluded themselves into believing that if they ignore global warming by confusing the issue. “It is all so complicated, and the atmosphere is so big, how can we change it at all?” despite the fact that scientists virtually to a person agree that it does have an effect. that the problem will just go away. When I speak to Europeans they are all aghast at our attitude, they take the problem quite seriously, Germany for example is well on its way toward accomplishing 20% electricity generation from renewable, non- greenhouse gas producing sources. What I tell the Europeans is that you cannot expect Americans to act like adults, that you will need to force us to comply with standards of good behavior. I often use the example of what we called the “pig pen house”, a family that lived near the unincorporated town of WIlburn IL (between Chillicothe and Streator on the Santa Fe main line) who refused to pay to have their trash removed no matter how much they were cajoled and threatened. It was a relatively modern brick house but one with old cars, mattresses, old tires etc. stacked to the eaves. And one huge pile of garbage all around the house. When the wind blew the garbage blew all around the area, down the road etc. And they refused to pick any of it up until the county forced them to by hauling it away and billing them for it. Well, the US is the international pig pen house, and frankly the rest of the world is fed up, because we share the atmosphere with the rest of the world. If the US does not comply there is a good chance that the EU (our largest market for exports) and other bodies will hit our exports with eco-tariffs roughly equal to the cost they have borne by switching to less polluting more expensive forms of electricity generation. And these tariffs will have the effect of slowing down our economy, thereby reducing our greenhouse gas production. Once they get their act together trying to overcome the financial meltdown (which started here with our loose financial system,
I don’t know why I respond to the tinfoil hat types, you call it a conspiracy bu then label an exchange between two isolated scientists as representative of a conspiracy among scientists, most working independently (there isn’t a serious, peer review hard scientist, physics or chemistry not “meteorology” that doesn’t agree with the proposition that burning coal and other human activities releases carbon dioxide gas, and that CO2 gas is an infrared absorber at rates that can be accurately predicted, and that causes the atmosphere to warm).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita
Note however that we have by far the highest population of countries on the top of the list list and so our impact is far greater than say Australia or Canada. We are 5% of the world’s population but around 30% of greenhouse gas emissions.
To pass off global warming as a socialist conspiracy is BS. Passing it off like that is irresponsible and is indicative of the apathy of the US and the unwillingness for being responsible for our own actions and what is needed to make corrections and protect what we have. Resting on laurals allows the wise to steal what we’ve worked for.since the mid 1700’s. It’s not conservative, it is suicidal.
I fear this thread is not long for this world.
I won’t debate if climate change is human caused or not. For now, that doesn’t really matter. What matters is that Government (and many companies) if not believing it, at least buy into it. That effects us all in different ways.
For me the biggest thing is reduced coal traffic meaning less trains. When I first became an engineer, it seemed like almost every trip out was an empty hopper going back west and a loaded coal train coming home east. Now, while I seem to still get empty hoppers fairly regularly, loaded coal trains are few and far between. It also affects the number of trains overall. It used to be I could check the board (when working the pool) and divide in half the number of times out I was to get an estimate how many hours before I went to work. If I was 10 times out, I’d go to work in about 5 hours. Now 10 times out can be good for 15 or 20 hours, depending on time and day of the week.
We still seem to have the same manifests and a few more grain trains and ethanol trains. But the loss of coal trains (for a variety of reasons: reduced demand for electricity, loss of contracts, etc) has really impacted the numbers of crews needed.
Jeff
Something tell me a Moderator sweep is going to be needed… [co]
See “Coal: Going, Going, Gone - How coal railroads can run downhill at a profit”
by Kneiling, John G., from Trains, October 1967, p. 37
- Paul North.
Thank you, I was starting to think I was the only one around here (or maybe one other) that understood the scientific method. And that stomping your feet and saying “you can’t make me” won’t change the facts.
This is going to be a tough one to keep open folks as even I have to avoid putting in any of my views in the moderation of posts. Can we get back to the OP’s main question and try to stay away from the hot topic / buttons… [co]