As you know, I wholeheartedly agree with that idea. But how do you get around the operational questions involving unionization, railroad service, and required hours and ‘away time’ for the outsourced employees?
I do still wonder whether the whole supposedly Mica-driven ‘experiment’ about getting rid of the diner service is intended as a way to ease the union out, after which outsourcing can be tried ‘more openly’ without a grand legal foofaraw…
When I lived in Atlanta in the 80s, it was Awful House, though I suppose locals pronounced Offal as awful? Not only was food bad, the service and ambience left a lot to be desired as well. Patrons often seemed involved with the crystal meth trade.
I generally support unions and living wages. But the wages you mentioned really seem out of line. ACY Tom was surely an exception, as was/is the Auto-Train, but in my limited experience, Amtrak food service employees were neither fast nor efficient and worse, they seemed to be graduates of the Penn Central College of Surliness.
Waffle House is in the Fast Food Segment which differs from Fast Casual which is a higher price range and fresher food. I ate in a Waffle House only once, I do not know how they pass Health Department inspections as the floor was sticky and the counter had not been washed in a while. Most McDonalds and Burger Kings I see numerous health department violations because their traffic is so heavy and they are so leanly staffed they cannot keep up with keeping things clean.
Certainly want Amtrak to be above average in cleanliness and they should staff for that. My observation of the servers in the Dining Car is they are not trained well at all or if they were at one time they have long since forgotten the training. I would not hire an Amtrak Dining Car Server for any for profit restaurant. They are too slow moving and few of them are intelligent when it comes to performing simple work tasks…and given those two items, yes, they are overpaid to boot.
Only way your going to fix that is to fire the current Dining Car Service crews and start from scratch. Amtrak will never take that dramatic of a step.
On another food service note, it really amazed me that Food Service when it existed on the Chicago-Milwaukee Corridor lost over $350,000 a year but then I learned the staffing was several $35-40,000 a year persons pushing a cart selling .75 cent to $1 candy bars mostly. Really you have to be brain dead to set something like that up for a 90 minute train ride…that was a license to loose money and screw Wisconsin Taxpayers.
You mean they looked like this?
For the record, Waffle House is in the Family Dining category, not ‘fast food’; their emphasis is on sit-down dining (and possible “proof” of this is that their takeout operations are slipshod and poorly-thought-out, whereas any sane fast-food operator prioritizes most aspects of takeout, from delivered speed to packaging).
They are certainly not in the Fast Casual segment, although some aspects of their operational ‘model’ might be made to work (how many “fast-food” places ‘specialize’ in large steaks?) with more attention to staff quality, facility maintenance, and … all the other places Waffle Houses tend to make quality-assurance nuts like me nervous. Their prices are certainly not what I’d expect from something in the fast food segment, especially given the general quality and food cost of much of what is served, and (again not to be Scrooge) I don’t expect table service from waitresses who need tips to make minimum wage as part of a fast-food scenario.
Let me be clear that I was not, and am not, suggesting that Waffle House outsource anything to Amtrak, even if some aspects of its ‘official practice’ (e.g. maintaining consistent perceived brand quality across its different regions) would facilitate one of the few “national” common dining experiences that would make sense for food service that can take advantage of regional specialties). I’m just noting that some of the actual operational practices the chain uses might be beneficial tools or operating philosophies for whatever people (and note that I don’t say ‘entities’) Amtrak does wind up using.
I do also agree that a great deal of
That was at least one wise decision by IL DOT, to NOT subsidize food service on the Hiawathas. Illinois does, of course, pay its share of the subsidy for the train.
In 1967, I recall riding the overnight NYC to Montreal train (NYC-D&H). Various guys would come through the coaches during the night pitching (in a loud voice) “Fresca, candy, snacks!” I imagine they were outside contractors.
Pretty much. The two times I ate in two different Waffle Houses, the food was consistently bad. The wait staff in one was “friendly” enough, but clueless.
That last sounds like the old time news butch. Back in the fifties, I knew one who worked between Bristol and Chattanooga; as I recall, he went down on 41 (the Pelican), and back up on 18 (the Birmingham Specail). He had more variety in his stock than the one you heard. I do not recall that he woke passengers northbound, but if anyone were awake and wanted some of his wares he was ready to oblige the customer.
Don Brewer has graciously allowed me to share from Facebook this first-hand report on the new menu as he experienced it on the CARDINAL.
Carl, the food was actually pretty good; no plastic wrap to remove - it was served ready-to-eat, and we had real silverware. There were two crew on both #50 and 51 (we rode both), but their responsibilities didn’t seem to overlap much. One was primarily the server for the diner half (the one who interacted the most with us), and the other ran the counter and carry-out function at the lounge side, from what I could see. It is possible that the one person staying behind the counter might have been helping with prepping orders for the diner, but it was hard to tell from my vantage point - keep in mind that much of the new product is pre-packaged and ready to micro-wave, airline-style. There were differences between our westbound experience and the eastbound train. The server on #50 had a lot of years’ seniority and experience on the line, and it showed positively in her organization and efficiency. As I mentioned earlier on in the thread, the flowers making their appearance in the diner were her initiative and personal investment, and, again, as I’d noted previously, this had come to the attention of the passenger service manager at Chicago and received his approval. Her colleague on #51 was friendly and enthusiastic, but younger and not having the benefit yet of all the experience she had, and wait times were correspondingly longer. And, no flowers on 51. Areas that could have used improvement were upping provisioning to reduce likelihood of running out of menu items - we experienced this both ways, and overall consistency of passenger experience westbound and eastbound, that “C” word. It’s obviously not possible to staff every train running in both directions with the same crew, so there’s a need to make sure each and every OBS crew receives the same training and support, and that exemplary employee initiative
According to Amtrak’s 2015 Annual Report, which was released recently, sleeping car occupancy on the Silver Star increased 21 per cent during the first seven months the train operted without a dining car.
New riders as well as riders upgrading to sleeper class from coach class were the sources for the increase in sleeper class occupancy on the Star.
“…Due to positive customer feedback about the lower pricing structure, the dining car was permanently removed from the Silver Star.”
It will be interesting to see if Amtrak management removes the dining car from other long distance trains.
Hmm. I wonder how many – or few – dollars were knocked off sleeper fares, and if these really accounted for the reported increased ridership, or if something else may have been at work.
Similarly with the “positive customer feedback,” which is in the eye of the Amtrak beholder. It doesn’t take much encouragement to support you in doing what you’ve made up your mind to do anyway.
As for the possibility of this contagion spreading to other LD trains … “interesting” does not begin to describe it.
Bottom line is the occupancy rate in sleepers increased 21% after dropping the dining car. Probably the fare was lowered to reflect its no longer including the mandatory meals. That certainly suggests that people, given the free choice, opt out of a dining car service.
“Positive feedback” is likely based on the routine customer service surveys Amtrak uses. But it sounds like you think that is “rigged” in favor of Amtrak’s position.
It occurs to me that there may be independent confirmation of the effect on some of those “Amtrak Sucks” complaint websites (where I’ve read plenty of diner-service horror stories).
If I recall, some of this ‘experiment’ involved watching what happened to the Meteor’s patronage, as it constituted a kind of ‘control experiment’ and potential place where disgruntled diner customers might turn. Are there detailed statistics that show what happened on that train? (Putting on my devil’s-advocate horns, I think Amtrak might try putting full diner back on the Star and try ‘dinerless’ on the Meteor, and see if the reported advantages follow the dependent variable…
I continue to think this is the same kind of “rigged” pavane involved in the eventual trail conversion of the eastern end of the old Maybrook line to a trail. First we denonstrate some “gain” from removing full diners on one train, then – still experimenting, mind you – we convert others and watch the effect. (Perhaps converting just those trains that use one of the historical commissaries, so you can close it forever and reassign or get rid of the staff, and all the ongoing union liabilities, etc., that go along with it.) Eventually, you have all the diners converted (perhaps expanding the ‘new’ hot-food model to them) and all the old service personnel for them ‘rightsized’ (what a fortuitous word for the phenomenon!)
Now quietly establish bids for privatized diner service, in key experimental corridors, now that you’ve demonstrated a sound business case for eliminating having to provide food service on Amtrak’s own money… and gotten rid of many of the overhead costs and many of the potentially-onerous government restrict
[quote user=“RME”]
dakotafred
As for the possibility of this contagion spreading to other LD trains … “interesting” does not begin to describe it.
It occurs to me that there may be independent confirmation of the effect on some of those “Amtrak Sucks” complaint websites (where I’ve read plenty of diner-service horror stories).
If I recall, some of this ‘experiment’ involved watching what happened to the Meteor’s patronage, as it constituted a kind of ‘control experiment’ and potential place where disgruntled diner customers might turn. Are there detailed statistics that show what happened on that train? (Putting on my devil’s-advocate horns, I think Amtrak might try putting full diner back on the Star and try ‘dinerless’ on the Meteor, and see if the reported advantages follow the dependent variable…
I continue to think this is the same kind of “rigged” pavane involved in the eventual trail conversion of the eastern end of the old Maybrook line to a trail. First we denonstrate some “gain” from removing full diners on one train, then – still experimenting, mind you – we convert others and watch the effect. (Perhaps converting just those trains that use one of the historical commissaries, so you can close it forever and reassign or get rid of the staff, and all the ongoing union liabilities, etc., that go along with it.) Eventually, you have all the diners converted (perhaps expanding the ‘new’ hot-food model to them) and all the old service personnel for them ‘rightsized’ (what a fortuitous word for the phenomenon!)
Now quietly establish bids for privatized diner service, in key experimental corridors, now that you’
Can you, or someone else who understands the numbers, post a two- to four-line summary of the numbers for the Star and the Meteor that shows the ‘condition A and B’ clearly in one place? It would greatly further this discussion.
Please explain. I thought a gavotte was a sprightly dance, the equivalent here of a rush to implement exciting new half-baked schemes (perhaps including fountain drinks?). Whereas the pavane is a stately pace, adherent to a set of arbitrary rules, culminating in a prearranged conclusion. Or at least so I meant by it.
If I can find the source for the numbers JBS1 cited, I would cite and if needed, summarize. So far, no dice.
Gavotte/pavanne? Not to be taken literally. Just joking about your rather obscure, archaic metaphoric reference.
I did find this. As you can see below, it is for the entire 2015 year, not only the seven months of the Star experiment in dropping the diner. So I still do not know where sam1 got the data cited.
[from page 2/2 of the linked report from Amtrak]
Amtrak Fiscal Year 2015 Ridership (10/01/14-9/30/15)
FY 2015 FY 2014
Silver Star 383,347 405,695 -5.5%
Silver Meteor 346,097 348,581 -0.7%
Obviously, these numbers do not show what sam1 said, but it is a different set of data (all riders vs sleeper only) over a different period (12 months vs 7).
Perhaps sam1 can provide the actual numbers used to show the 21% gain in ridership? Earlier he complained at having to read a short report, preferring a summary. I prefer the data so I can see if they support somone else’s conclusions or not. An example of the different styles/preferences of empiricism vs accounting/business?
Update, using this data set. Page A-3.5
Sleeper Class only
August FY 2016 FY 2015
Silver Star 3,175 3,359 -5.5%
Silver Meteor 3,778 3,827 -1.3
October-August…
Silver Star 32,945 30,073 +9.6%
Silver Meteor 38,944 40,441 -3.7
So it covers a longer (11 months) period, which trends in the same direction as sam1’s post, though with less than half the magnitude of change.
One thing I noticed on the menus, the price of “premium spirits” is different if you travel on the Silver Star versus the City of New Orleans.
You would think they would simplify and have one price across the system nationwide but apparently it is a full dollar cheaper to stock the City of New Orleans with Liquor bottles than it is the Silver Star with the same…and they would rather pass on the price break to folks in Chicago and New Orleans. That’s really nice of Amtrak given they are losing horrendous amounts of money on food service already.
Also I noticed they are selling Pepsi Products which everyone knows Coke sells much better by now in the United States in cafe, restaurant and bar settings. So another marketing loss there.
Coke is even more popular in the south all the way to Texas.