Witnesses say light was green just before Metrolink train crashed
2 mature railfans and a security guard, who were on the Chatsworth station platform at the time, say the signal north of the station was green. For me the interesting part was an NTSB investigator saying that he gave more credence to the accounts given by the railfans because they are “…familiar with RR operations.” Go here to see the story, including pictures of the witnesses.
Certainly is an interesting article. 3 people all confirming that the signal was green. You can’t completely rule out their story. I am not sure if this changes anything, but 3 people all who saw the same signal at the same time, has to carry some weight.
Another interesting point: one of the railfans, when he saw the signal as green and saw Sanchez accelerating towards it, turned to the other and said: “I see a green light already. I guess he’ll (Sanchez) get through the tunnel first.” They were expecting the freight train to be causing a red signal and were surprised to see a green.
Here is a mature man, a railfan of presumably long standing, speaking to another similar railfan. These were not casual observors of the moment, they were people who knew trains fairly well. They were anticipating something different from what they saw and one commented on this.
This railfan said that the NTSB tested his vision at the station a few days after the wreck and he saw the signals fine.
And the security guard is 20 years old with good uncorrected vision and he backs up the two railfans as to the signal being green.
To me this possibility is far more disturbing than the idea of a human error on the part of the engineer. People make mistakes. Signal systems should not.
It’s an interesting article but having conducted freights over that line I have my doubts. None of the witnesses are qualified rails. I’m sure they’re sincere but this looks like a sidebar issue.
The Metrolink engineer ran through a main line switch lined against him. The NTSB has the nose camera video from the UP freight which will show the signal aspects the UP crew saw prior to the collision and establish a timeline.
While the switch may have been lined against him, and the UP may have had a clear signal, the question seems to focus on whether the signals facing the Metrolink engineer malfunctioned.
Lots of so called “witnesses” really never witnessed anything at all. Just wanting some media attention. They’ll say whatever it takes will stir a big fuss and get all over the news.
It took three weeks for them to go to the LA Times after hearing nothing from the investigation after they were questioned. But the two railfans said they were interviewed by an NTSB investigator a few DAYS after the crash. This investigator was thorough enough that he gave them vision tests and ascertained that they were able to accurately tell the color of the signal from the station platform. But he took no notes and they did not think to get his ID.
I really can’t buy into the theory of so called trackside outsiders that most likely don’t have anything better to do than create attention to what already has been a very tragic & sad event for the people who died, injured and the rr industry itself. It simply is a fact the Metrolink train ran through a dual control switch at a control point lined against the train. Word is damage to the switch caused by the train running through it was around $13,000.
Every Federal official I have ever dealt with gave out their business card almost at the same time you shook hands in greeting. Something is ‘rotten in Denmark’ about this story.
FINALLY I SOLVED this very very AWFUL and Terrifyling Crash GUARANTEED!!
The following explaination is Airtight and TOTALLY GUARNATEED:
I have been having many–many nightmares about false clears ever since this crash. I am convinced that Engineer Sanchez INTERPRETED any Restricting signals prior to Chatsworth like he was FOLLOWING another train in a PARADE. He had NO knowledge that any OPPOSING move was headed his direction as a potential Head–on collision which sadly happened. This is why CTC can be so very bad if no verbal contact is made with the dispatcher to CONFIRM lineups made on single track portions of the route. I therefore recommend using the verbal Direct Traffic Control radio movement authority as a Backup to all SINGLE TRACK CTC signals. This brief and direct “DTC” system was used by the SP on the California Coast Line with a good safety record from 1985 onward to the 1996 UP Merger.
The AUTOMATED CTC STACK ROUTING FAILED BIG TIME here. That is the ONLY way that ALL first-hand wintnesses can be CORRECT and the NTSB after the fact findings of no defects with the signal and CTC system.
TO repeat: the AUTOMATED COMPUTER CTC STACK ROUTE SYSTEM TOTALLY FAILED here with tragic results
Advance CTC "Stack Routing of train must now be BANNED TOTALLY NATIONWIDE in light of the circumstances surrounding this horrible crash.
Somehow the track Circuit LOST–LOST the UP Freight train Occupancy and LOCKED ON a GREEN signal for Metrolink train 111 on 9-12-08 As the NEXT move in line on the COMPUTER system.
Sadly the Official Management story can NOT hold water because we would have to believe the following:
Engineer Sanchez somehow operated the Metrolink train TOTALLY BLINDFOLDED from the Chatsworth Station and past the switch with NO LOOKING UP at the supposedly Red signal (CTC Home signal) . This KEY signal can EASLY
What about the siding switch that he ran through ? If he was being so observant, why didn’t he notice that it was aligned for the other track before he ran through it ? If he did notice it, then why did he run through it asnd keep going anyway ? For either one, why didn’t he do something about that situation afterwards, like brake and report it ?
Also, I understand that the opposing UP local freight train was a more-or-less regular occurrence, not a rare “one-of” event. If so, he would not have been justified in assuming that there was a “PARADE” of 2 trains. Further, he would have seen only 2 or 3 restricting signals total before this one - all pretty much equally consistent with either scenario. Finally, making that assumption - following another train on restricting signals, and assuming that the next one will also be something other than STOP - has been causing at least rear-end collisions for what, 125 years or so now ? What if there had been coastal fog conditions causing restricted visibility instead ? Would he be justified in doing that then ? Of course not.
I don’t accept this. I have no love of computers, but this still seems more like a human-factors event to me.
FINALLY I SOLVED this very very AWFUL and Terrifyling Crash GUARANTEED!!
The following explaination is Airtight and TOTALLY GUARNATEED:
I have been having many–many nightmares about false clears ever since this crash. I am convinced that Engineer Sanchez INTERPRETED any Restricting signals prior to Chatsworth like he was FOLLOWING another train in a PARADE. He had NO knowledge that any OPPOSING move was headed his direction as a potential Head–on collision which sadly happened. This is why CTC can be so very bad if no verbal contact is made with the dispatcher to CONFIRM lineups made on single track portions of the route. I therefore recommend using the verbal Direct Traffic Control radio movement authority as a Backup to all SINGLE TRACK CTC signals. This brief and direct “DTC” system was used by the SP on the California Coast Line with a good safety record from 1985 onward to the 1996 UP Merger.
The AUTOMATED CTC STACK ROUTING FAILED BIG TIME here. That is the ONLY way that ALL first-hand wintnesses can be CORRECT and the NTSB after the fact findings of no defects with the signal and CTC system.
TO repeat: the AUTOMATED COMPUTER CTC STACK ROUTE SYSTEM TOTALLY FAILED here with tragic results
Advance CTC "Stack Routing of train must now be BANNED TOTALLY NATIONWIDE in light of the circumstances surrounding this horrible crash.
Somehow the track Circuit LOST–LOST the UP Freight train Occupancy and LOCKED ON a GREEN signal for Metrolink train 111 on 9-12-08 As the NEXT move in line on the COMPUTER system.
Sadly the Official Management story can NOT hold water because we would have to believe the following:
Engineer Sanchez somehow operated the Metrolink train TOTALLY BLINDFOLDED from the Chatsworth Station and past the switch with NO LOOKING UP at the supposedly Red signal (CTC Home signal) . T
While eyewitness accounts can sometimes be very helpful in an accident investigation, they are often unreliable when not backed up by hard evidence. While I do not doubt that these three people think they saw a green signal, I seriously doubt the signal was actually green. The mind is very easily convinced that it saw something that did not exist.
This type of information frequently surfaces during airline accident investigations. Immediately following the crash of a Spanair MD-80 at Madrid’s Barajas Airport this past August, there were eyewitness reports of the engines being on fire or exploding before the crash. Even survivors in the front of the plane reported an explosion and fire at the rear of the cabin before the crash, leading to the immediate speculation of engine failure (the MD-80 has two rear monted engines). This was widely reported in the global media for the first few days following the crash. However, a video captured by airport surveillance cameras recorded the entire takeoff roll, brief flight and crash. This video clearly showed that there was no fire until after the airliner crashed. Preliminary investigation has revealed that the pilots did not set the flaps in their takeoff configuration, causing the plane to stall almost immediately following liftoff and crash.
A similar inconsistency of eyewitness reports was noted following the crash of USAir Flight 427, which mysteriously dropped out of the sky while making an otherwise normal final approach at Pittsburgh. This crash happened during a weekday afternoon in plain view of a shopping center, several youth soccer games, a golf course and a busy freeway, so there were dozens of eyewitness reports. It turns out this crash was caused by a faulty control valve that caused the rudder to deflect in the opposite direction than what was commanded by the pilots, causing the plane to roll out of control and dive to the ground. There was no fire before the plane struck the ground, even though numerous
FINALLY I SOLVED this very very AWFUL and Terrifyling Crash GUARANTEED!!
The following explaination is Airtight and TOTALLY GUARNATEED:
I have been having many–many nightmares about false clears ever since this crash. I am convinced that Engineer Sanchez INTERPRETED any Restricting signals prior to Chatsworth like he was FOLLOWING another train in a PARADE. He had NO knowledge that any OPPOSING move was headed his direction as a potential Head–on collision which sadly happened. This is why CTC can be so very bad if no verbal contact is made with the dispatcher to CONFIRM lineups made on single track portions of the route. I therefore recommend using the verbal Direct Traffic Control radio movement authority as a Backup to all SINGLE TRACK CTC signals. This brief and direct “DTC” system was used by the SP on the California Coast Line with a good safety record from 1985 onward to the 1996 UP Merger.
The AUTOMATED CTC STACK ROUTING FAILED BIG TIME here. That is the ONLY way that ALL first-hand wintnesses can be CORRECT and the NTSB after the fact findings of no defects with the signal and CTC system.
TO repeat: the AUTOMATED COMPUTER CTC STACK ROUTE SYSTEM TOTALLY FAILED here with tragic results
Advance CTC "Stack Routing of train must now be BANNED TOTALLY NATIONWIDE in light of the circumstances surrounding this horrible crash.
Somehow the track Circuit LOST–LOST the UP Freight train Occupancy and LOCKED ON a GREEN signal for Metrolink train 111 on 9-12-08 As the NEXT move in line on the COMPUTER system.
Sadly the Official Management story can NOT hold water because we would have to believe the following:
Engineer Sanchez somehow operated the Metrolink train TOTALLY BLINDFOLDED from the Chatsworth Station and past the switch with NO LOOKING UP at the supposedly Red signal (CTC Home signal) . T
FINALLY I SOLVED this very very AWFUL and Terrifyling Crash GUARANTEED!!
The following explaination is Airtight and TOTALLY GUARNATEED:
I have been having many–many nightmares about false clears ever since this crash. I am convinced that Engineer Sanchez INTERPRETED any Restricting signals prior to Chatsworth like he was FOLLOWING another train in a PARADE. He had NO knowledge that any OPPOSING move was headed his direction as a potential Head–on collision which sadly happened. This is why CTC can be so very bad if no verbal contact is made with the dispatcher to CONFIRM lineups made on single track portions of the route. I therefore recommend using the verbal Direct Traffic Control radio movement authority as a Backup to all SINGLE TRACK CTC signals. This brief and direct “DTC” system was used by the SP on the California Coast Line with a good safety record from 1985 onward to the 1996 UP Merger.
The AUTOMATED CTC STACK ROUTING FAILED BIG TIME here. That is the ONLY way that ALL first-hand wintnesses can be CORRECT and the NTSB after the fact findings of no defects with the signal and CTC system.
TO repeat: the AUTOMATED COMPUTER CTC STACK ROUTE SYSTEM TOTALLY FAILED here with tragic results
Advance CTC "Stack Routing of train must now be BANNED TOTALLY NATIONWIDE in light of the circumstances surrounding this horrible crash.
Somehow the track Circuit LOST–LOST the UP Freight train Occupancy and LOCKED ON a GREEN signal for Metrolink train 111 on 9-12-08 As the NEXT move in line on the COMPUTER system.
Sadly the Official Management story can NOT hold water because we would have to believe the following:
Engineer Sanchez somehow operated the Metrolink train TOTALLY BLINDFOLDED from the Chatsworth Station and past the switch with NO LOOKING UP at the supposedly Red signal (CTC Home signal) . T