I’m a newbie, returning back from the younger days…
I’ve done alot of research, got the book “Track Planning for Realistic Operation”. And I’ve spent alot of time with my layout design, and also got some help and suggestions from the guys over on another forum.
In any case, I would like some opinions on my layout. I have finished all the benchwork, and just started laying the track this weekend. So it’s not set in stone yet. lol
Railroad Prototype: Modern/Current D&RGW in Denver, CO
Type of operations: Passanger & Industrial with both continuous running and switching operations.
Layout area: 13’x15’
Scale: HO
Track: Walthers flex track, Peco #6 switches, 24" Min Radius
DCC: Digitrax Super Empire Builder with DS64 Stationary Decoders
Welcome back to the hobby. You seem to have a good idea where you want to go and have read what is concidered by many the “Bible” of layout planning.
My first question on your plan is, can you get to the left side of your layout? If not, it appears to be a long reach to the switches at the lower end of your yard.
Second, do you have access to the inside of your tunnel?
Be sure you read up on the new scenery techniques available. Not that the old ones don’t work, just some new ones are easier and sometimes less messy.
Thanks cowman for the encouraging comments. We noobs need that.
Yes I have tested reaching access to the entire track it’s about 2’ to 3’ reaches. There is a small access hole in the lower left next to the yard. The big access hole in the upper left is pretty big, I could sit there for operations.
I have a question on the mountain, I was planning on making it removable, is that the right way, I always wondering how some guys with huge mountains have access to their tracks?
Does the layout look OK then? Anything I’m missing anything? How does the yard look?
Just for safety’s sake - do you have enough space in your layout room to walk around the entire outside of the whole layout, or is two sides of the layout (and possibly about a third of the lower side) up against walls, so the only way of accessing e.g. the yard is to duck under and into those three access holes?
Yes the back and left side is against the walls. The only way for access is the access holes. I have been using these access holes during the construction and the start of my track work, and so far it’s been ok. I have enough room to squat walking under to the access holes. I’m short like 5’ 7"
You want to remember that a 3’ reach during construction isn’t the same as a 3’ reach over a sceniced layout. There will be buildings, trees, telephone poles and the like in the way. Layout height makes a difference also. You aren’t tall, so put a few things “in the way” and see how the reaching goes. We are all built a little different, so same height doesn’t always have the same reach. I’m short legged, but have good reach above the waist, someone with long legs and short arms has a different reach.
For access into the mountain, you do not have to remove the whole mountain. A removable section, whether top, side or whatever, as long as it is big enough to reach into and see what you are doing. I would suggest using stacked pieces of blue/pink extruded foam. It is light and strong. The whole mountain need not be solid, just stacking pieces around the edges and gluing them together with cheap latex caulk would give you a good mountain base that you can easily plant trees in. If you choose another type of construction for your mountain, I’d still suggest a piece of foam for the removeable section. A joint between ledge and hill or a low rise just in front of the seam can help disguise the removable piece.
One question on the yard would be is the tail track long enough for the biggest engine you will want to run? Also, if you are running caboose equipped trains, do you want to be able to remove or attach a caboose to the end of the train, then it would have to be long enough for both. I’m sure you will get other comments on various parts of the layout.
What is the spacing on your yard tracks? The further you reach the harder it is for the 5 fingered repair crane to reach in and make corrections.
Are you using magnetic uncoupling? Same problem when trying to reach in and uncou
I don’t think I would have wanted to do a lot of “squat walking” under the layout during operation - my middle aged back hurts after a while when I do those things, but you may be a lot younger than me or have a better back than me.
Cowman also made a good point about reach across empty table vs reach over buildings, scenery and cars.
Okay - track plan apart from reach factors. Sounds from your description that you both want continuous running and some switching.
You say Modern Era D&RGW in Denver, Colorado.
What passenger trains are you thinking of operating - the Ski Train? Amtrak California Zephyr passing through? How long would your train be - where will it come from before getting to the Denver Union Station, and where will it go after stopping at the Denver union station?
What kind of freight trains are you planning to run - - what does that mean in types of engines and types of cars, car length, number of cars?
Passing siding/station track seem far longer than yard tracks. Are you planning to double trains into yard tracks?
Access to yard is either backing in or backing out from the yard, since the yard is not on any of the loops. Four six foot or so tracks, with a runaround track. Tail for running engine around seems fairly short.
No chance of reconfiguring the track plan to an around-the-walls or single large operator pit style layout with a single swing gate or liftup or duckunder or something like that?
Here is a link to a quick checklist that Byron Henderson uses for evaluating track plans - some points may be irrelevant if your design goals
The figure 8 loop around the two “access holes” is cute, but is unreachable and only adds to the length of the mainline. If you did away with the figure 8, you could push the lower center tracks up past the two access holes, and perhaps curve the lower left “yard and mountain” to the right to form a C ,(or G),shaped layout, making access to the lower half or the left wall, so that you can reach all parts of the layout, without having to “duck under”. As has been stated," reach of construction, is not reach of a fully sceniced layout"! I am 83 arthritic years old, and have access holes, in case I can’t reach over scenery. Incidentally, there are commercial " extended reach and grasp tools available,(that I use). Where does the train entering the “Mountain Tunnel”, rejoin the rest of the layout, (or does it) ? You can have a “Lift out fascia” access to the tunnel, (as I see it). Have you ever considered using “double-slip” switches, instead of a single cross-over,(which restricts one to direction, unless you back up) Since you are going for DCC, why don’t you consider reverse loops, and wyes"? They make “operation”, a lot more interesting! Below, is a photo of one of my “removable mountains”, which is really only a “hill” that blends into the mountain, and hides the reachable ramp to the 18 chute ore unloader track. I happened to have a Styrofoam cello case, but other packing or built up arcs of 2" insulation, glued together, would make a “lift-out mountain” Bob Hahn This mountain has two removable portals for access to 6 tracks below the mountain. The first photo shows the mountain mine with 3 tracks for loading iron ore or
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I think I’m too far into construction to change to around the walls layout. But now I’m thinking the access to these holes may get to be a PITA. I will have to live with it, maybe in a year or two, I will rip it out and start over again.[:)]
To answer a few questions:
The yard: Why can’t I pull in forward, drop the cars and use the small tail track back up to the yard entrance? The tail track is long enough for my engines. ie. SD45
Should I add a turnout to the bottom of the yard to access the main line outer loop? Oh wait, I see what you guys mean, if the train is longer than one of the yard tracks, there’s no way to run around. What should I do exactly?
Passenger trains: I will run are the Colorado Ski train, and the Amtrak train. It will pick up the people at Union Station, go out to the outer main line, to the mountains, maybe once or twice or more around, then can go into the inside loop figure 8, then back again and finally back to the station.
Frieght trains will be new modern diesels, SD45s, SD70ACe, etc. with a mix of long and short cars. I already have a few 60’ box cars, and even some auto-trailers 72’.
I would caution you about adopting this fatalistic approach to your current situation, and to the feedback you are receiving from knowledgeable modellers here. It would be a shame to find, six weeks from today, that you are beginning to understand and to appreciate all the caveats they had warned you to consider. Each day after that, as you doggedly continue to stick to your plan, you will feel less good about your unwillingness to get out of the rutted path down the wrong street.
Several members here have stopped, taken a sober look at their progress to date, thought hard about the warnings others were sending their way, and then shrugged and began to tear it all down. It’s part of our learning. You can probably alter much of what you have without dismantling the bulk or the whole. It may set you back as much as two or three weeks, depending on your time allocation, but that will soon be forgotten when you have been sold a better design in which you have almost no major confounding problems.
I’m still confused about the yard regarding the runaround track. The lead track into the yard, if I kept this open, no cars parked there, could I use that to get from one side of the yard to the other?
As Crandell suggests, Correct it NOW, or you will never be satisfied with operation of your “duck under” layout. Once you start laying track, ballasting, and installing structures, roadway,etc.,etc.it becomes frustrating,expensive,time consuming task, to remodel a completed layout Cut parts of your layout into movable modules, that you can rearrange, to make all parts of your layout reachable. If you are going with Digitrax DCC, - Super Empire Builder, divide your layout into power districts that can be radio controlled by one or more throttles, or tethered to Loconets. DCC, (with AR! reverse loop modules, to control polarity), makes reverse loops, and wyes, easy to control and fun. Wow! You are really getting good advice. Stein’s, Cowman’s, and Selector’s suggestions show how different approaches will make your layout operational, and fun. Crandell’s layout is smaller than your 13’x15’ HO layout area… My 24’x24’ is slightly larger, but 13’x15’ is above average. Your mainline, passing around the yard is great. I would suggest that you make your 6 track yard, a pass-through yard, (rather than a stub ended yard) Note the photo of my 7 track yard with train length double “drill track”. By using double-slip switches, and cross-overs, the switcher has access to all 7 tracks, without ever leaving the yard. Dismantling and forming consists is simpl, and the length of each track in the yard is almost equal in length. There are no sharp corners to my layout top. All corners form undulating curves. Bob Hahn Click on the photo to enlarge it. Then click on the 63 photo series at the left, to see other views of my layout.
Easiest way of using your yard is to run most of your trains clockwise on your layout, and to back trains into the yard, and drive them forward out of the yard onto the rest of your layout.
To store a train longer than one yard track, you back into the yard track, cut off the rearmost cars, pull forward with the rest and then push the rest of the cars into another available track.
To get a train to go counterclockwise, you pull cars out of the yard, pull it forward to the track next to the bridge or to the union station, cut off the engine, run around the engine, put it on the other end of the cars and head off in a counterclockwise direction.
Or if it is a short train - you can run an engine past the cars, back onto the train, push backwards past the crossover and pull forward onto one of the loops.
You can always find a way to run trains on your layout.
Btw - just for the heck of it, I tried a rough sketch of an E-shaped layout set into a 15x13 foot space - haven’t tried in any way to optimize it - just roughed in some passing sidings, some industries etc. Minimum curve radius is 28", turnouts are Peco code 70 mediums, which is about the equivalent of a #6 turnout.
One observation is that 13 x 15 feet is a pretty big space (at least compared to the 6 1/2 x 11 1/2 foot room I am building my layout in - you could potentially get quite a bit long and narrow scenes with generous curve radii into that space.
Thanks Stein. I’ve been thinking really hard on the yard situation, and I agree with everyone else that it needs to be more accessible than having to duck under that small access hole. So I went home during lunch and played with some tracks/turnouts. I’ll post it up soon.
btw I don’t plan on using any cabooses. So I don’t think I need a runaround for that?
In the perfect world, you should have an Arrival/Departure track that is long enough to handle a full length train (what ever that means on your layout… on mine that’s about 25 cars, a caboose and 2-3 diesels… this is N scale, so that translates to about 8’.)
I have three through tracks, basically a main and two A/D tracks, so at any given moment I can receive a train, assemble a train, and let a main line train pass through the yard.
The classification tracks come off of the near A/D track, so all the yard switches are close to the aisle, as are the class tracks.
I’ve reconfigured the track plan a bit since this iteration, but it gives you the basic idea. The main change was to extend the mains around the roundhouse to extend the length of the A/D tracks.
Following the above plan from left to right now…
This is the beginning of the yard. The main line approaches from the left, crossing the river. Inbound trains stop on the bridge to wait for clearance. The crossover allows outbound trains to reach the westbound main from the yard. The track in the front is a stub end waiting for a future expansion, the building to the right of the crossover is the caboose shop.
Next we have the yard throat. The class tracks are single ended, so all the classification is done from the left. Again, the
OK I have moved and re-designed the yard. Now I have full access to it without using that small access hole.
I figured I will be using the yard much more than the Mine industry, which I will still have to use that small access hole for switching that, but alot less often. (which I can deal with).
I feel better already, but not ready to give up what I built so far. I mean it’s not completely horrible, like I said I have been using the access holes already, and it hasn’t killed me yet! LOL
Move the yard out to where you can comfortably get to ALL of it. It’s the most important part of the layout, you are hanging yourself by putting it in the interior and reaching it from a pop-up. During switching operations, it will look like you’re playing Whack A Mole.
Start by designing your yard for the operations it needs to support, not as an afterthought squished into a leftover space. Yes, it’s that important.
Please see my previous post, I already moved the yard, I have full access to it now, without using the access holes!!! The reach is only 2’ from the top of the yard all the way down to the bottom.
If you have, like you say, rather unalterable benchwork, there isn’t a whole lot of changes that can be made to the trackplan. But Lee’s suggestion looks like a good one. The figure eight loop will only complicate construction and may even hide some of the scenes that are behind it a bit. If there is no mountain to loop around, no reason for the track to do what it does, that figure eight will not look very realistic, IMO.
Also, I’m not a passenger ops guy, but I don’t think all passenger cars will operate on 24 inch radius curves. Research the equipment you plan on using or else you will be tearing things up quicker than you planned after you start having a bunch of derailments.
Is there a reason to choose the benchwork’s footprint like you did? Some obstruction in the lower right that prevents you from using the entire space?
Don’t get offended by any post here and DON’T turn another screw until this thread lives a bit. A thread that discusses a potential layout in a 15x13 unobstructed space will last quite a long time here, with a variety of input from many, unless YOU decide to shut it down by not responding or working with the other responders a bit.
I’m royally screwed. I didn’t know that the yard was the most important piece, I just didn’t realize the importance of access until now. Even with the yard on the near side, the reach is still beyond 3’.
My favorite thing on the layout was that looparound. I spent countless hours shaving the foam with a nice easy grade going down 1" into the foam to the plywood, so that I only needed 2" grade for the passover. It looks really good. And it will kill me to trash it.
Please help, what do I do now. Please be nice, I’m a new to all this. There’s gotta be some way of salvaging this!!!
btw, that lower right area is walking area to another bedroom, so I can’t use that space.
- you could potentially get quite a bit long and narrow scenes with generous curve radii into that space.
