One interesting blurb from the article states that they are trucking the 1500 barrels per day to Salt Lake area refineries. Since one barrel equals 42 gallons, that’s only 63,000 gallons per day or 441,000 gallons per week, not enough to justify a shuttle train just yet. They would need roughly 5 times their current production to justify a weekly oil can move by rail. By the same token, if daily production doesn’t exceed 10,000 barrels a day, that may not be enough to justify the construction of an oil pipeline into the area. Relatively small production quantities may favor unit train transport over pipeline transport.
Of course, the question is mute if the proposed Sevier rail link is not built. Does anyone know the current status of that project? The line is being proposed to move coal out of the region, but of course it wouldn’t hurt to move some oil out as well.
It is unfortunate that the D&RGW chose to abandon rather than rebuild the Thistle branch which once ran into this area. This is one of those sticking points with me regarding current railroad abandonment regulations. If a railroad no longer wants to operate a rail line, then that property should immediately be transferred to the State with everything intact, rather than letting the railroad sell the rails and ties for scrap. When a property owner abandons a brick business building, he is not allowed to take the bricks with him. The local government condemns the whole lot intact, and either auctions it off to other bidders, refurbishes the building with public funds, or razes it themselves. This idea of letting railroads scavenge the remains of railroads and then just walking away is detrimental to the national economy, and is inconsistent with standard infrastructure abandonment procedures.
Most of that “new” rail line accessing the Marysvale branch from the east is going back along old railroad grade long abandoned coming in from Nephi (DRGW-San Pete Valley RR- Sevier RR- CSL). Very little would be totally new. As usual, the environmental access crap jerrymandered by several self serving interests is bogging the process down. Six County Government and their small consultant have a long way to go. Old head DRGW folks here still talk about the heartburn DRGW went through when they had to give up on the branch, the costs outweighed the benefits and could not be mitigated. (and ps- the State was offered the rail line, they refused it, but have put new road allignments over it in several places)
Generally, when such a decrepit building is abandoned, it is because the value of the building is so low, that no one will pay to buy it, and the cost to demo the building exceeds any residual land or scrap value. So typically the owner strips what fixtures can be easily liquidated, and then the property sits until property taxes fall far enough behind to srize the property, having the end result of sticking the taxpayer with the cost of demolition .
Rail, on the other hand, has an ideal set up for recovering the scrap value remaining, everything is out in the open, no building wrapped around it all, and the perfect means to haul away the materials, just as you pull them up behind you
LC - FM likes to play fast and loose with the facts or he ignores them altogether if it does not suit his agenda/ view of the world here. His reality is selective - nothing new. Tried to avoid stepping into the last paragraph, but you jumped in feet first. Have fun!!
Somebody turn up “Big Rock Candy Mountain” now please…fade to black.
Look at your local regs. Most local governments have a say in how abandonded property is disposed. For example, if the owners of the Space Needle in Seattle suddenly converted to the sect of environmentalism and subsequenty decided that the structure was a blight on the environment and needed to be torn down, they would have a hard time getting the necessary permits to do so. The governments of Seattle, King County, and the State of Washington simply would not allow them to do so.
Governments at all levels do have an absolute say on how improved property is disposed. They need to take that oversight right and start applying it to railroads.
Mudchicken and LC are simply reactive antagonists who once again pull shortsighted retorts out of their anal brain holes.
SHOW ME THE STATUTES!!! Mr. Anal-IST. That is simply NOT TRUE. PERIOD.
Local governments can control zoning and to a lesser degree permitting, they cannot and do not have absolute control over property use or demolition.
Further, railroads are exempt from Anti-trust laws and which are not subject to local or state regulation of their operations, routes, and services by virtue of Federal preemption. Land use and permitting are expressly preempted under City of Auburn v. U.S. 154 F.2d 1025 (9th Cir. 1998) as is permitting of railroad constructed structures. Green Mountain RR v Vermont No. 04-0366 Slip Op.(2d Cir 2005).
So c’mon genius. Lets see it. No more smoke and mirrors. You can’t just bend everything your way, nice try.
Oh, and while we’re on the subject, you might just want to examine the recent case of CSX v. Williams decided on May 3, 2005 by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit holding that a D.C. ordinance establishing an exclusion zone for hazardous materials transportation was preempted by the Federal Railroad Safety Act, and as such unenforceable.
In a way you made my point. Railroads are not subject to local and state building regulations, ergo the hypocrasy of giving localities the “right” to force the preservation of an otherwise nondescript brick structure built in 1910, but not the right for force preservation of a rail line built in the 1880’s. Given the total impact on local economies, it would make more sense to preserve the rail line than the old brick building. The Sevier County oil find is a case in point. There was a rail line running down from Thistle to Richfield that would be very useful right now for moving unit trains of oil to Salt Lake refineries, but because of the federal pre-emption regarding railroad regulation and FEMA funds distribution, that line is gone and now they’re talking about building a new line east from the UP’s LA to Salt Lake line, the cost of which is much more than if they had just been able to finance the reconstruction of D&RGW’s Thistle branch after the slide. So now all the oil is moving by truck, and if they do get that line built, it may come too late to serve as an oil shuttle, because by then they will have built a pipeline. And to top it off, by accessing off of UP’s LA-SL line rather than via the old D&RGW line, the potential Sevier rail shippers will be subject to UP rate monopolization rather than having UP and BNSF compete for rates via Thistle.
Whether the State of Utah was “offered” the Thistle branch via sale is moot, because:
Most such offers go through each state’s DOT (read: Highway Depts.), and those guys don’t want to fool around with railroad politics, they’d rather sling the asphalt around. Such sales should be offered through the States’ Commerce departments, but nonetheless…
Unless such a sale can afford the online shippers better rates and services, there is no justification for a state to take over rail lines such as the State of Washington deal. All that resulted in was Watco getting a sweet deal at the expense of the State
No doubting you passion LC. An old judge friend of mine used to have a way of looking at the railroads that was somewhat contrary to that of his brethrin and sisterine in Georgia. “The railroad being the way it is about real estate is really one of the primary lines of defense against the loss of private property belonging to the private citizen.” In short “The sacred nature of deeds and titles is dependant of the attention of the owner Large and Small, Rich or not rich, Railroad property or a Private citizens home.” Judge W. Reynolds State of Georgia to a young friend of his at that time in the 1960’s, — me.------------------What strikes me as strange is the lack of clarity when folks discuss the real assets of a railroad company. Your holding to the statutory side of the matter is a good attempt to keep this view in focus. Unfortunatly there are those that would choose to use local opinion substituting as legal and practical reality that gets many an arguement going. I feel that your reserch while falling on many deaf ears, for me shows why I have always respected those know that they know and keep their minds active in those areas they have spent their lives developing. In short, well said. - PL
In a way you made my point. Railroads are not subject to local and state building regulations, ergo the hypocrasy of giving localities the “right” to force the preservation of an otherwise nondescript brick structure built in 1910, but not the right for force preservation of a rail line built in the 1880’s. Given the total impact on local economies, it would make more sense to preserve the rail line than the old brick building. The Sevier County oil find is a case in point. There was a rail line running down from Thistle to Richfield that would be very useful right now for moving unit trains of oil to Salt Lake refineries, but because of the federal pre-emption regarding railroad regulation and FEMA funds distribution, that line is gone and now they’re talking about building a new line east from the UP’s LA to Salt Lake line, the cost of which is much more than if they had just been able to finance the reconstruction of D&RGW’s Thistle branch after the slide. So now all the oil is moving by truck, and if they do get that line built, it may come too late to serve as an oil shuttle, because by then they will have built a pipeline. And to top it off, by accessing off of UP’s LA-SL line rather than via the old D&RGW line, the potential Sevier rail shippers will be subject to UP rate monopolization rather than having UP and BNSF compete for rates via Thistle.
Whether the State of Utah was “offered” the Thistle branch via sale is moot, because:
Most such offers go through each state’s DOT (read: Highway Depts.), and those guys don’t want to fool around with railroad politics, they’d rather sling the asphalt around. Such sales should be offered through the States’ Commerce departments, but nonetheless…
Unless such a sale can afford the online shippers better rates and services, there is no justification for a state to take over rail lines such as the State of Washington deal. All that resu
If I’m reading his take on this issue correctly, it appears that FM believes that no railroad right-of-way should be taken up, EVER, against the possibility that it might be needed in the future. Of course, if such a line remains in place with no traffic, maintenance would be minimal to non-existent and rebuilding if and when a future need comes up would be quite expensive. Of course, such a situation would be in violation of the Fifth Amendment prohibition against deprivation of life, liberty or property without due process of law.
Now what about this oil find in UTAH, How big, How accessable, How long to full production, What grade, Who owns it, what is its lifting costs, etc, etc, etc. Such small things I’m sure but being of an Enquireing Mind, Would or could anyone in the know fill in this member of the forum on the original title of this thread ?
Marysvale Branch was (before 1983) a 140 mile drop to the south from DRGW’s transcon at Thistle, UT with the worst grades centered around a crest about 25 miles south of Thistle with a maximum grade of about 1.6 % and some sharp 12 degree curves. You were basically running south in a box canyon. The bottom 2/3rds of the railroad were undulating with curves less than 6 degees and grades in both directions less than 1%. About 100 miles south of Thistle at Ephraim was a line to the east (Moroni Spur) that went up and over a steep hogback ridge with a narrow saddle in it that connected Ephrain to Nephi on the UP Salt Lake - Las Vegas transcon. The line was only about 16 miles long, but had up to 5 % in grades any many short reversing curves in the six degree range. The UP and DRGW gave up on the pass in the early 50’s. Utah Highway Department took over the route through the saddle, it is now Utah Hwy. 132. Railroad and highway cannot exist together through the saddle. With the easy way now a highway, line changes in that country would be tough (massisive, cuts, fills or tunnels - NOT CHEAP) Operating a unit train over that terrain would be a bearcat and a knucklebuster. Go back and read my post above for the rest of the poop. Six County Government is trying to build-in a new line, but the economics are shaky at best. The coal and oil is all in the south third of the line. Any coal or oil/gas would be developed from scratch ; and the jury is still out on the viability question.
MC, let me get this right, as a former surveyor to one who still is in the art; the geography and remotness of the location would mean that this oil deposit would have to be a find on the scale of a Spindletop. In your practiced and professional opinion would a rail line be a worthy investment for a rail company or would the pipeline alternative be a more approprate one?
Remeber that one of the reasons that the Marysville branch was abandoned as that Thistle Junction suddenly found itself under about 100 feet of wafer ( where it remains today) due to the landslide that formed Thistle Lake. D&RGW drilled two tunnels on the north side of the canyon to get the main line pass the lake but never did reconnect the branch.
Thanks for confirming what I stated, that localities have regulations regarding demolition of structures, you’re hair splitting not withstanding. We have a phrase for persons such as yourself. Keep up the inadvertent work!
CSSHEGEWISCH,
No, I do not believe that no rail ROW should ever be taken up, I’m saying that rail lines that serve certain localities should be mothballed if the owner decides to throw in the towell. Where we differ is that I believe if the owner decides to give up on a rail line, then they should abandon the whole works lock stock and barrel, and let the local and state governments take the resposibility for removal of rails and ties if they decide the line serves no public purpose. Use it or lose it (all). Furthermore, I seriously doubt that there is any net value in scraping operations in most cases. The cost of rail and tie removal can cost more than what the scrap dealer will pay (see previous threads on this subject).
Mudchicken,
Seriously, is the profile of the old Thistle branch any worse than that of Soldier Summit and other mountain mainlines? They can run unit trains over those, right? I’m not doubting your analysis of the line, but methinks you doth protest too much regarding operational constraints.
piouslion,
The proposed Sevier rail link is primarily for moving coal out of the County. Any oil trains would be an added bonus, thus the viability of the line is not dependent on the status of the oil discovery.