Saw this recently, find it very interesting in a market that is supposedly dominated by DCC?
http://www.katousa.com/N/Unitrack/ASB.html
Maybe as prodomently an N scale company, KATO has found the acceptance of onboard sound and DCC in that scale not as universal as hoped?
Maybe Soundtraxx, who partnered with them on this, has seen the same thing, or seen a real interest in sound without the other features of DCC?
I have an idea for a trackside sound system - maybe one day.
Sheldon
Just couple that to an extra relay contact on your MZL system, with a speaker in every zone, and the sound would follow the train.
Unlike the cheap MRC one that was around for a while, this one actually reads the BEMF from the loco to adjust the sound approriately. Guess the old Atari cartidge storage box could come in handy once they release the other sounds.
–Randy
Very interesting as SoundTraxx has been pushing the SurroundTraxx system.
Rich
Yes, Randy that would be the method. The new Aristo wireless throttle has generic sound built in…
Sheldon
The price points suggest the two systems are targetted at very different audiences. Both groups apparently want sound though, as the cheapest option is still no sound. I doubt the participation of Soundtraxx represents rethinking a very successful product line. They’re simply filling niches with a product that fit with already installed technology and which is an affordable entry level product for customers they likely hope will advance to more sophisticated sound systems while retaining brand loyalty.
Good analysis Mike, I agree. I was not suggesting Soundtraxx was doing anything other than trying to reach additional customers.
Last time I checked, Ford builds entry level economy cars and expensive luxury cars for the same reasons.
But it rasies the question, that possibly these yet untapped market segments are larger than some like to assume?
Sheldon
I’m not so sure. I first heard a SurroundTraxx demo at either the 98 Nati’l Narrow Gauge Convention in Colo. Springs or the 2000 in St. Louis. It’s oriented toward adding sounds to a DCC layout.
The new product with Kato is for adding sound to DC locos. There’s a lot more DC overseas still and having an international partner to strengthen distribution can help the folks in Durango.
I suspect that there will alwasy be a certain segment that hasn’t made up its mind about some things, but the potential customer base for Surroundtraxx is fading as most factory decoder installs now include sound and most decoders and speakers can fit in small engines, the two big problems that Surroundtrax was the answer to.
The Kato sound box is for the DC market. Sure it’s shrinking slowly, but that particular decision, DC or DCC, still happens a lot.
Wait a minute. I think something is wrong with my computer.
I never thought that I would live long enough to see the day that the Sheldon would start a thread promoting sound on a layout.
Is this the same Sheldon who buys a sound equpped DCC locomotive only to remove the sound decoder and smash it to smithereens with a sledge hammer ??? [(-D]
My, my, my. [*-)]
Rich
Rich,
I am not promoting or detracting sound, I just find it interesting that if DCC is as “universal” as is often touted on this forum, that a manufacturer would spend this kind of money on a “DC” product.
That said, I have always said I like sound in larger scales, and have also expressed an interest in layout based sound systems.
HiFi and speaker design are one of my other hobbies - ONBOARD sound in HO or N scale simply is unacceptable to me based on sound quality. Two 1" speakers are just TOO small for the job in my view. They all sound like a 1968 9 transistor pocket radio to me.
Something with an 8 or 10 woofer under the layout…
But even that is not a necessity or priority for my modeling.
Sheldon
Kidding aside, I am not at all surprised that manufacturers are searching for ways to implement sound on DC layouts. I don’t think that DC locos are going away any time soon, so there is a real need for sound on DC layouts.
Rich
I realized another difference between the two products. Surroundtraxx has the capability of running sound in up tgo six locos at once. That could be noisy.
The Kato/Soundtraxx Analog Sound Box (ASB) supports just one loco at a time. I presume that you could just keep adding them if you needed more than one at a time in DC with it’s one loco/consist per throttle architecture.
Interestingly, there is a MIC input on the ASB…? What next, karaoke with your trains?!? [%-)][I][swg]
Station announcements, like MTH DCS. Uh oh, Kato and Soundtraxx better watch out, MTH may sue them for that.
Surroundtrax is a much more sophisticated mixing system, at least that’s what it seems to be - so that when you have multiple locos on thelayout, the sounds are coming from speakers near their respective loco. This unit is more along the lines of being the engineer and having sound in you ‘cab’.
–Randy
Mike,
Everytime DC vs DCC comes up on this forum, there is a vocal group who “swear” that nearly every “serious” modeler has gone DCC and that every new modeler wil go DCC.
This despite the replies from those who do not use DCC?
I will be the first to admit, that if you narrow your critera to HO modelers who are interested in group operationing sessions and have moderate to large layouts, DCC useage is likey 85% or higher amoung that group.
That is a pretty narrow definition of Model Railroading. DCC is not hardly on the radar in any of the larger scales.
Considering the relatively small samples this forum represents, a rather high percenta
Sheldon,
The usuall quote mechanism is on holiday or something, so bear with my quotes…
Sheldon wrote:
Everytime DC vs DCC comes up on this forum, there is a vocal group who “swear” that nearly every “serious” modeler has gone DCC and that every new modeler wil go DCC.
This despite the replies from those who do not use DCC?
I will be the first to admit, that if you narrow your critera to HO modelers who are interested in group operationing sessions and have moderate to large layouts, DCC useage is likey 85% or higher amoung that group.
That is a pretty narrow definition of Model Railroading. DCC is not hardly on the radar in any of the larger scales.
Yeah, I don’t know about these vocal groups. There are individuals who clearly are on one side or the other – or feel that they should take sides. I really don’t have a dog in this fight, because I can see doing either under some circumstances.
There is another way to look at how this breaks down as far as manufacturers are concerned. They’re here to sell locos and it’s clear from the offerings that DC only locos are fading in terms of sales. The only plausible reason for them not making DC versions is they simply aren’t selling enough of them to make it financially viable. I discount the conspiracy theories I hear that consumers are being “forced” to adopt DCC. I also suspect that those who’ve embraced DCC buy a LOT of locomotives compared to ordinary folks in the hobby. That further skews sales numbers in favor of DCC. It’s not so much how many people who’ve chosen DDC as it is the number of units sold to them that drives the market.
Of course, we’re talking HO here, not N, where Katos sales in the US are concentrated and generally not the larger scales as you’ve noted. I think the issue of getting DCC/sound into N scale is what drove this decision. They sell relatively little HO and
More thoughts…
Sheldon wrote:
To assume that every modeler, young or old, new or experianced, will progress in the hobby in the same way with same interests has no basis in fact. So to see this product as just an “entry level” or “bridge” product in incorrect in my opinion.
I think it’s less an entry level or bridge product than a “good enough” product. You get power and sound in one box. In many ways, it duplicates what is available on the typical DCC/sound loco, but can easily be reassigned to another loco at any time. If one is a lone wolf operator, it could work well. If you have a 6- or 8-cab layout and give everyone one of them, it’d be a cacophony. I just don’t see it , except for maybe one cab, on a layout like yours.
I think a good layout based sound system with generic steam and diesel sounds would be more effective than worring about the difference in sounds between an ALCO and a EMD when it then gets played through a 1" speaker.
That could save you some money with a system like this. Just use the sound card that comes with it, good for everything from a Plymouth diesel on up. No need to buy extra cards.
For the average sound buff, there’s a heck of a difference between an ALCO and GE, though. Long before I got interested in sound on the layout, I knew about the differences, mostly because we used to have a RS-2 call on the mill and quarry right across the street, plus the Monon had more Alco and GE out on the main. Seeing the obviously right loco putting out obviously erroneous sounds would be very distracting.
Mike, I agree it is a small layout/lone operator product, I just think that market is bigger than many think.
I have always said a whole room full of different sound locos is a disaster - at least for me.
I agree and understand that different locos sound different, but I just don’t see the point when the fidelity is so poor. In the HiFi music world speakers are judged by how long people can listen before they become “tired” of the sound - for me HO onboard sound lasts about 10 minutes.
Still I suspect this product is a result of the fact that the DC market remains larger than many want to believe - even in HO or N.
Sheldon
One last, somewhat complex thought.
My reason for my choice is a combination of labor (my time) and economics.
For me signaling and CTC are more improtant than any of the other features DCC would add.
The under layout infrastructure of DCC with signaling would take just as long to build and install as my system - I know, a number of my friends have done/are doing just that.
That under the layout infrastructure of DCC, combined with signaling by any method - solid state/computer or analog - would be similar in cost to my system, maybe a little more, but I will call that a wash.
BUT then I would have to buy and install 130 decoders - $3200 and 130 jobs I don’t particularly care for - then when some of them did not run well together, I would be speed matching/adjusting CV’s…more stuff I have done and don’t enjoy - end of story.
Sheldon
Mike,
Like you, I have broken up my replies based on available time, so here is just a little more.
I agree, there are no “anti DC conspircies” with the manufacturers (except maybe at MTH). And I’m sure DCC locos are more in demand for several simple reasons, not the least of which are two simple facts - many older DC modelers have most all they need and want - even if they were purchased as recently as the last 10-15 years - it is the newer modelers, and those who have embraced DCC and who are replacing their fleets who are buying locos. And manufacturers today are faced with serious inventory issues. Not making seperate DC versions, but rather making them easy to “back date” as Bachmann has generally done, makes more sense - I get that, and I’m fine with buying non sound DCC locos and removing decoders - they sell well on Ebay.
But to point to the latest offerings and say that proves that everyone has gone DCC, has no basis at all - the two issues are not related. Heck, I have bought 25 or more DCC locos, even a few with sound. They are not running with decoders now…
I have always been an advocate of choice - not one system or another. In fact I bet I have said 100 times or more on this forum - “if you want onboard sound, you need DCC”.
These manufacturers can barely put product in the market these days, let alone offer versions with all three choices - DC, DCC, DCC/sound - again that has little to do with how many modelers use what kind of control or why.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
I’ve never believed you to be an advocate of DCC/sound-related conspiracy theory, but it’s a not infrequently expressed belief.
I also had another bit to add, one of the perils of insomniac posting…
You mentioned the fidedlity of sound being immaterial to you, considering it all suffers by comparison. It’s probably best to think about why sound works for many. It’s the same reason many in O scale ignore that odd 3rd rail in the middle of their track, why most in HO ignore those wide wheel treads, and N scalers put up with big, ugly couplers and tall rails. Sure there are workarounds for all those, but there are also legions of modelers who look right past such things and enjoy their work no matter what some see ads major deficiencies.
Sound fidelity is much the same. Some don’t want anything to do with it, while others are happy with a Thomas-like chuff-chuff. Most do appreciate the differences in sound quality and some can be highly critical where the sound files fall short.
The appreciation of sound qualities is a matter of taste as much as anything. Why are people happy with MP3 sound? I don’t know, but even I tolerate it as it’s just easier than burning all my own files just to make a worthwhile if highly incremental upgrade.
There are a number of systems out there, and a growing segment is dead rail, in HO scale.