New to model railroading, with several questions.

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Even though I have already asked a few questions, I thought I would introduce myself.

My name is Greg, and I have been looking for a new hobbie, to save some money.

I was briefly introduced to model railroading over 30 yrs ago, and a couple of years ago I ended up with dad’s HO and N scale equipment ( while my brother ended up with the O scale stuff ), after dad died.

While sorting through some of the things in storage several weeks ago, I ran across the model train equipment and thought it might make an inexpensive alternative to another hobby, that I can persue while dealing with medical issues that keeps me at home more often than I would otherwise prefer.

I have decieded that I want to go with N scale, as almost all of the HO scale equipment I inherited is Tyco, and the fact that space is a premium. I also decieded that I realy didn’t want to mess with the real tiny details that are visable with HO, but, I wanted to do general area rather than just a smaller slice of a system, while Z scale was to little bang for too much buck.

While I tend to diesels, I do have this particular fondness for what I call Heavy Metal steam - Big Boy, Challenger, & Daylight ( having seen the Daylight & Challenger beating up the tracks on a number of occasions, and the Big Boy in Cheyenne WY ).

Doing some reaserch, I have found a few things, that have had me scratching my head, and while one of the guys at a local train shop was able to answer a few questions, I can’t just spend all of my and his time picking his head for the answers.

So hear are some more that I have yet to find answers for.

  1. Brass rails do not look proto-typical, but, conduct electricity better ( when clean ) than the nickle silver rails, while the nickle silver rails look more proto-typical, but, stay cleaner longer and when oxidation starts to build up, it’s more
2

nickelsilver all the way.

If you want to run train, go DCC. If you want to start with DC, fine, just wire for DCC and change when ready. That is wht I did. I did spend a few bucks on DC I didn’t need and a LOT of time.

I am in HO, so many of the N scale questions, those guys will answer.

I too love the big steam, but my track will not deal with the Big boy.

The tools you have will probably be too large for much use, but the skills will help. I buy tools when I need them. I did try jewelery making, and those tools came in handy. You will find you need a different tool box with every stage. They do not have to be expensive, but they can be. I am working onb a project right now, where a $500 soldering set looks good. I am getting by however with a $15.00 pen from a former life.

3

A. For starters you said you were interested in N-scale. As far as I know N-scale has been nickel-silver from the beginning. My first N-scale set in 1969 had nickel-sliver track and I’ve never seen anything other than some cheepo brand (mounted on plastic ballast) that tried steel. B. It is so much easier just to solder another feeder into the track where needed and let the copper wires carry the power than worrying about making the track more conductive. C. Most people don’t have large enough layouts for any of this to matter anyway.

Once again in N-scale it is almost a moot point. There has basically only ever been one viable option. Micro-trains.

Ok, now you are talking some serious options and decisions. The first as you noted is the choice between DC and DCC. With today’s tiny decoder size DCC is a serious option for N. Usually the only time I recommend an HO person go with DC is if they ever only want to have one train on the track at a time. I suppose that same advise would go for N-scale; however, in HO I have yet to find a locomotive I could not convert to DCC… I doubt I could make that same claim in N. I think there are many that are too crowed inside the shell to convert without serious surgery.

With DC power it is hard to beat the old reliable MRCs. I’ve got several that have been in service for over 40 years now and still going strong. The new electronic ones (Tech series) can make locomotives run much better.

Harder. I believe there were a couple of tool threads over in the layouts forum over the past few months. Personally, I say a set of jewlers files and scre

4

Hi Greg,

N scale is a good choice. The quality and variety has improved vastly in recent years. The pros are you can model large industries in a realistic manner and run long trains with multi engine lashups. The cons are…well it’s tiny and the selection is smaller than HO. Being an N scaler who dabbles in HO, that’s all I can think of. Quality engines cost about the same as HO but rolling stock is often cheaper.

I have never seen brass N scale track either. It’s all nickle silver as far as I know. Brass may have better continuity than nickle silver but only for a couple days. Plating on brass would eventually be worn off by the wheels.

There are two couplers in N scale. Rapido style which have practically become extinct or knuckle couplers which are what everyone pretty much uses and what manufacturers install. There are two major knuckle couplers… Micro Trains (formerly Kadee) and Accumates. Micro Trains couplers are the best. They sell conversion kits for just about everything and manufactures such as Intermountain buy them from MT. Atlas and Athearn use Accumates. Both are compatible.

If you’re versed with metal fab, a rotary tool is a good to work with. You can get cutting and grinding wheels for them like you would for an angle face grinder. You can’t cut or shape plastic with it or it melts.

DC or DCC depends on your likes. DCC is an added expense but well worth it if you have a large enough layout for it. If you plan to buy into sounds, then DCC often comes with the package. For DC, I agree the MRC packs are good packs. The new ones filter the DC for smoother operation and cooler running. They also give you better throttling. It wouldn’t hurt to buy engines marked “DCC Ready” and switch to DCC later. The boards keep getting better and cheaper as time goes on.

5

These statements are very funny.

This is a great hobby, but it is not necessarily any less expensive than any other hobby.

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While nickle silver is not the greatest conductor it is more than adequate for our purposes. The conductivity really only becomes a factor with larger layouts and is easily compensated for by adding more wire drops. The primary conductor of track power shouldn’t be the track anyway, regardless of whether the track is brass, nicklesilver or gold. The best way to conduct power around a layout is a copper buss line under the layout attached to periodic wire drops from the track above.

If this is all new to you, I would certainly recommend going back to the hobby shop and pick up one of the Kalmbach books on layout wiring, you’ll find them invaluable. As a mater of fact, I would suggest you buy a couple of other books as well, like one on layout building, there’s a multitude of various how to books available and this hobby has a pretty steep learning curve, so read a lot!

As far as tools go, think small, like jewellery size. Micromart http://www.micromark.com/ is a great source for many small hobby type tools and supplies, ask for their mail order catalog (free & comes monthly) and you can of course also shop there online.

Some basic tools would include: Xacto knives, jewelers files, tweezers, needle nose pliers, Xuron wire and track cutters, liquid plastic cement (Testors, Ambroid, Tenax), super glues (aka CA or ACC), I generally have “thin” and “medium” on hand, 5-minute epoxy, white and/or yellow glue, small screwdrivers, both phillips and flat head. The list goes on…[:)]

A motor tool is very helpful, (such as a Dremel). A decent 40watt soldering iron, flux paste and rosin core solder (fine type).

Good luck and welcome to the hobby and forum. Unfortunately, I hate to tell you this, but you’re not going to save much money in this hobby[:D].

7

The ONE tool that I use more than any other is a good quality cordless drill. I got a 19.2 volt Craftsman. It also has an LED, which is handy when you’re working UNDER the layout. I made a wire dispenser that hangs under the layout. It makes pulling wire a snap, as anyone that’s ROLLED wire from a spool can attest to. A GOOD soldering iron and the aforementioned Xuron tools… and don’t forget a caulking gun. That and some acrylic latex caulk make track laying a snap!

8

The N scale track that came with dads stuff, while not as yellow as the brass HO track, definetly has a yellow tint to it, which looks a bit like bright brass.

Which brings up another question. The idea of soldering a piece of wire dirrectly to the rails, realy bothers me for some reasion, what about terminal rail joiners?

Is Micro-trains on it’s way to become the standard or something?

[quote]

Ok, now you are talking some serious options and decisions. The first as you noted is the choice between DC and DCC. With today’s tiny decoder size DCC is a serious option for N. Usually the only time I recommend an HO person go with DC is if they ever only want to have one train on the track at a time. I suppose that same advise would go for N-scale; however, in HO I have yet to find a locomotive I could not convert to DCC… I doubt I could make that same claim in N. I think there are many that are too crowed inside the shell to convert without serious surgery.

With DC power it is hard to beat the old reliable MRCs. I’ve got several that have been in service for over 40 years now and st

9

I’m not so picky about diesels, as long as it looks good and runs well it works for me.

OTOH, when it comes to the heavy metal steam, it had better be everything it is ment to be and a scale Challenger had better act like the UP3985 would at the same size, and the same thing for a Big Boy

[quote]

I have never seen brass N scale track either. It’s all nickle silver as far as I know. Brass may have better continuity than nickle silver but only for a couple days. Plating on brass would eventually be worn off by the wheels.

There are two couplers in N scale. Rapido style which have practically become extinct or knuckle couplers which are what everyone pretty much uses and what manufacturers install. There are two major knuckle couplers… Micro Trains (formerly Kadee) and Accumates. Micro Trains couplers are the best. They sell conversion kits for just about everything and manufactures such as Intermountain buy them from MT. Atlas and Athearn use Accumates. Both are compatible.

If you’re versed with metal fab, a rotary tool is a good to work with. You can get cutting and grinding wheels for them like you would for an angle face grinder. You can’t cut or shape plastic with it or it melts.

DC or DCC depends on your likes. DCC is an added expense but well worth it if you have a large enough layout for it. If you plan to buy into sounds, then DCC often comes with the package. For DC, I agree the MRC packs are good packs. The new ones filter the DC for sm

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I will not say it’s all new. I have a few books already, " N Scale Model Railroad " to name one, about half a dozen misc. back issues of MR, and I have already read most of the stuff at the local library.

I know them. The one thing about them that I don’t care for is the fact that once you are signed up for their catalogs of one hobby type, it’s like pulling teeth to try and get their other catalogs.

[quote]

Some basic tools would include: Xacto knives, jewelers files, tweezers, needle nose pliers, Xuron wire and track cutters, liquid plastic cement (Testors, Ambroid, Tenax), super glues (aka CA or ACC), I generally have “thin” and “medium” on hand, 5

11

I guess that is not really surprising because nickel-silver is really just a variation of brass (it has no silver in it at all). It has more nickel and less zinc than a normal yellow colored brass, so it would not be too surprising to find a yellow tint as it aged.

Yes, those would work. I know Atlas makes them.

No, the Rapido “half basket loop” hooks are the standard. Micro-trains is like the Kadee of HO. Not a standard but it is hands down the best performing coupler available. But, since I see you mentioned some young children will be working with the trains, it might not be a really good thing to convert couplers right at first.

12

An inexpensive alternative to what hobby, I might ask? Collecting Faberge eggs? Financing experimental spacecraft? I suppose it’s always a matter of degree, but it’s almost an article of faith that model railroading is expensive–or, at least, more expensive than it used to be, or more expensive than it should be.

N scale is a wise choice if your interests are big steam and larger chunks of a railroad (although a mile of mainline track still takes up more than 30 feet of linear space.)

Soldering wire onto rails really isn’t that hard, it should be no challenge for anyone handy with tools. It’s helpful to place heatsinks next to the soldering point to avoid melting plastic ties. You can use terminal joiners too, but unless those are soldered dirt and oxidation can cut down on how well those work.

Why you might want to think DCC: Model railroading is a gregarious hobby, and you might meet friends to operate with. Plus it simplifies wiring vs. traditional cab control. It also makes linking several non-identical locomotives together (a daunting prospect with DC) practical, which makes modeling those endless coal trains more interesting.

There are other pluses, like better control of loco lighting, sound, realistic throttle response, etcetera, beyond just being able to run multiple trains.

13

There’s not much I can add to what the other members have said, except that I’m an N scaler myself. And in the beginning, like you, I was going to go at it the least expensive way possible. So. I built my layout for about $500, and that includes the table, surface with mountain, track, town, back drop and power packs. Then that rotten train bug bit me… Now “many” thousands of dollars later, I have quite a collection of diesel and steam locos, as well as about 125 or more pieces of rolling stock - some of which I’m still trying to figure out why I bought… Oh well.

Good luck to you.

Tracklayer

14

This isn’t nearly as true as one might expect. Most new locos except Walthers/Lifelike (and I think that is changing) have drop in baords available that replace the existing light board. I have installed a hardwired decoder in an Atlas RS-3. I even managed to keep all the LEDs, though with a bit of modification. There’s not much room in there. Also did a LifeLike SW-900 (IIRC). I did remove the light from that, though I have seen methods that don’t. Point being that in many cases (the majority, I think) there is a way to get a decoder into most N scale locos without resorting to an extra car.

15

I have been doing N-scale for 30 years. I have only seen nickle silver rails. If you want to run more then one train at a time go DCC. When buying engines get those that are already decoder ready and the decoders will just slip in. If you are going to use older engines you will have to install them and do some soldering. Soldering rails is easy.

Good Luck,

Craig

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I suspected those words might draw a comment and when you say any other hobby, you would probably ( in most cases ) be right.

OTOH, compared to the cost of competitive target shooting, you wouldn’t come close.

To keep in practice, at least 1000 rnds ( at preferably at least twice that much ) a week, need to be shot, and even if you reload, the rising cost of metal, makes buying rolling stock something that can be done with pocket change. Even a $300 locomotive, is next to nothing compared to the $2000-5,000 that may be spent on a single high quality rifle, and that is before any gunsmithing is done to it.

17

How about competitive target shooting?

A high quality target rifle might run $2000-$5000, and that’s before any gunsmithing that might double it’s cost. Then the cost of ammo add another chunck of cash - 1000 rounds of ammo a week, at $5 per 20, is $250, if you don’t reload, and might pay 1/2 that if you do.

Not all that hard with a 4x8 sheet of plywood, if you double back once. I guess thats the reasion I tend to gravitate to somewhat complex loops - where the train never see’s the same piece of track until after 3-5 min has passed

Never said it was hard, I just don’t like the idea of something so permanent, for a layout I may change a year later.

[quote]

W

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Okay, but we’re talking a LOT more than one $300 loco.

I guarantee this hobby will cost more than competitive shooting. But you’ll see that for yourself.

Luckily, the cost is spread out over time, so it doesn’t hurt as much…until you start mentally adding up what you’ve spent over two or three years.

19

Thanks.

Platform wise, I’m using the dinning room table for base then just building a ‘box’ to go on the top of the table to put my layout on. While some might question my choice, I chose it for what I think are a number of good reasions.

  1. It not being used for anything else.

  2. It’s where I’ll see it, all the time, and if I just want to take 5 min to add or adjust something I can, without having to go out of my way to get to it. Since I can see it, I also have reasions to finish it, and not just get started and then avoid it. Since the wife will be able to see it, it behoves me to keep the costs down where I can, or else I am going to be answering uncomfortable questions [B)] ( at least the rolling stock I get, might have been found in my DAD’s old stuff [;)] )

  3. It’s already 64x40 before the extentions are extended out. With the extentions out, I can fit 2 4x8 sheets of plywood side by side on it, with 2 ft of overlap on most sides.

  4. The thing is older than I am, and while it is no real value other than personal value, the thing is built from lamanated hardwood, and is stable as granite.

  5. It’s location w

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Understood, there is more than one $300 loco, but, a $300 loco, should last for several years with reasionable care. Correct me if I’m wrong, but, things like that are basicaly 1 time expences because it’s useable more than once - the same is not true, about the cost of ammo, to practice.

Imagine buying a $300 loco, then throwing it away after a month - that’s right, throwing that $300 loco away after using it for a month and buying another $300 loco to replace it the next month.

This is the type of expense that occures again and again - month after month all year long. First hand I know guys that shoot 3000-5000 rounds of ammo each month, and even if the cost is only $2 per 20 rnds ( not likely ) if they reload it them selves, this adds up to $300-$500 a month. I know of others that claim to shoot 8000-10000 rnds a month.

Sorry, unless there is something about the model railroading hobby that I am not aware of I don’t see how the cost of model railroading can come close to compeating with that kind of expense.