I just recently decided to do a little HO “model railroading” after 25 years absence. I’ve been wandering around the web getting up to speed with all the new technology and already working with XTrackCAD on design.
Before I jump in on construction of a big sprawling layout I am going to build a trial walk-around to test out the sort of track work that is in the bigger plan, also play with the new tech and hone my building skills a bit. Last time I learned the hard way that tight curves and steep grades can cause big problems, so this time keeping 24" radius as an absolute minimum and planning easements into the design. I will be modeling the transition era and do not plan to run long cars which I know will help. The trial layout is designed to test the worst-case situations in the bigger plan. I will be testing with a new Spectrum H-4 2-6-6-2 and FA2/FB2 diesel construct which are typical of the type of locos that I want to go with.
Everything needed to build and test the layout is already here or on order, except for lumber. I plan to use clear 1x4 lumber for the benchwork to build an open frame and set plywood sub-roadbed on risers to get nice grades, which is the way I did it “back then”. Hopefully you guys know what I mean by this.
So with the introduction over, here is the question. 25 years ago I was on a tight budget and used the cheapest materials I could find (and paid the price for it!) Money is not so much a factor now. So… what would be the best grade ply for the sub-roadbed? I went by the local Home Depot and can get 1/2" hardwood ply which is beautiful and smooth or save a little money and get 15/32" BC sanded pine. Is there any advantage to going with hardwood? Is 1/2" about right for getting a stable platform using support risers spaced around 18" apart, maybe 24" worst case?
Since this is designed for testing the center area wil
I just picked up some 1/2" hardwood plywood today! It’s more expensive than the sanded BC, but it’s two more plies and so is more stable than the BC. Also, it’s less prone to warpage than pine plywood. The hardwood stuff I picked up is flat and should stay that way even when cut. I think you’d have to go to 3/4 inch pine to even get close - the 1/2" BC had waves in the sheets on top of the stack, and I think they would show up in the stuff down lower in the stack once all the weight was off and the plywood “acclimated.”
The more plys in the sheet, the stiffer it will be. Half inch birch cabinet grade would be the absolute best, but might be over kill for a test layout. If you use the regular plywood, you can add or use more risers to keep it in place where you want it.
Quite a few of us are using builders foam as the layout surface now. (Blue, Pink, or Green) It can be built up or carved down. To get reliable grades, Woodland Scenics makes foam track elevations in different percent grades.
Just wanted to make sure that I wasn’t thinking crazy with the hardwood ply. The added cost is actually pretty small compared to the rest of the stuff that goes with this hobby, and the better the base, the better the track work, so thought it may be worth it. There has to be a balance though- need to be able to work in smooth easements into grades so the board can’t be too stiff. And even though this is just a test layout I want to use the same materials I would purchase in large quantities for the big layout just to reduce “surprises”.
Yes I see that the use of foam is probably the biggest change when it comes to construction methods. But I want to build some pretty dramatic scenes involving big mountains and slopes, and I used the open grid method for this successfully in the past. I am thinking of sneaking some foam in to see how it works and maybe get the best of both worlds, but I want to try it on my test layout first.
Can’t help but mention the electronics technology improvements- that part of the hobby is a whole different world. Just playing around with my new NCE DCC and locos- being able to run multiple trains without all the blocks and switches is a massive jump, and the motors run sooo smooth compared to what I remember. Yes having sound is a nice addition, but you have to be away for a while to really see just how far things have come.
I used 5/8 pine plywood from McCoys. Made next door in LA it seemed better quality tha what was in box stores. I could not get a clear answer on what the mid plys were made of in the hardwood veneered plywoods so I wad unsure of those. HD had some “cabinet grade” 3/4 ply that they could nor clarify as to makeup and some woodwork guys online disliked so I ruled that out. I stuck with less than 18" joist spacing, but wider exceptions can be mitigated with a cross-member plus riser. My 1x4 sideframe members between 8’ leg spacing sagged a bit, but risers can be adjusted to compensate.
I don’t see that you have outlined your intentions of how you are going to make your track bed. Mine is made from A grade one side plywood and low grade on the other as the sub road bed, A side up. This is supported every 12-18 inches by 1X2 uprights with glued and screwed together cleats and the sub road bed is then screwed down to the cleats and uprights.
On top of this, I laid cork roadbed from Midwest Products nailed with small tacks to the plywood. Many are now using caulking to glue the cork to the sub road bed and the same for gluing track to the cork. I have found that new/better ideas for how my tracks are arranged seem to pop into my head after seeing how the track work has been laid and used for a while. I like the idea of being able to easily re-arrange things, should I decide to do so and the nails allow this. Gluing down would destroy both track and roadbed, I would think.
I used DAP Alex Plus clear caulk to glue both cork and flextrack, as many seem to recommend. I made a few modifications and it is surprisingly easy to separate track from cork sliding a putty knife through.
Yes that is exactly what I meant by open frame with risers (uprights) to support the ply sub-roadbed. And my question was about the best thickness/grade plywood to use assuming 18" spacing between support joists. So you are spot-on. As already mentioned a narrower spacing can be used for extra support where needed by adding a cross member at the frame, but I want to be able to get a drill motor in there so don’t want to space the joists too close as a rule.
I was not very happy with cork back then and switched to homasote which was readily available. Its not available around here anymore so I ordered some of the homasote from California roadbed to try out. Cork roadbed is one of the few things that they stock at the only local hobby store (small Hobbytown) so I can try some that way to see if my opinion has changed.
My roadbed and track back then was nailed in place but like the idea of using caulk so will give that a try. If track can be peeled off cork successfully then it seems like it should be even easier with the homasote roadbed.
Foam looks interesting for slopes and areas that are fairly flat like yards and such but think I am best off sticking with the few things I know that worked well in the past.
Anticipating the next question, I am going to try Walthers/Shinohara code 83 flex and turnouts. The flex forms differently than the Atlas but I had no problem laying out two sections with a joint in the middle of a 24 deg curve on my workbench to play with. I am not a newbie to l
I think spline is wonderful stuff. I used hardboard (masonite). You get over 40’ of roadbed for under $10.00. It transitions so smoothly it’s hard to tell where the ups and downs and rights and lefts actually start. I used 1" wide 1/4" thick x 7 strips wide for mine.
I had a bit of a problem getting the tops even on the first couple of strips. To resolve the issue I clamped the entire strip firm to the next one making sure it was dead even at the top. I then would unclamp about two feet at one end and glue that with the glue gun. Once that was set I unclamped the rest of it and glued away. It went back against the next one the way it had been clamped. Make sure you put a screw through every foot or so.
Using a rasp and a small level I put a bit of super elevation into a curve or two easily. Course sandpaper would do the same.
After having layouts built with all the methods I wanted to experiment a bit and try something new, so I used foam and spline on this one. So far I am delighted with the results. I have about 65’ of spline on this layout. At $.15 a linear foot, the price sure beats the foam risers.
One more thing, when using spline you don’t need a cork or foam roadbed as you caulk your track directly to the spline. If you are interested in seeing more go to Google images and search “spline roadbed”. It is another option.
I have used the 1/2" hardwood plywood from both Home Depot and Lowes. It is very close to cabinet grade and is good stuff. The biggest advantages over cheaper grades of plywood are both the extra plies and the lack of voids in the inner plies.
Since you are building open grid benchwork, I would pass on today’s crappy dimensional lumber and just rip whatever you need from sheets of the 1/2" hardwood plywood. Very strong legs can be fabricated by gluing a 2 1/2" wide strip of 1/2" plywood to a 2" wide strip of 1/2" plywood at a right angle (“L” shape in section). I used wood glue blocks I cut from 2 by 4’s ripped to 2 by 2’s to reinforce the inside corners of my open grid plywood benchwork. I glue all joints and use a wire brad nailer to hold everything together while the glue dries. The resulting benchwork is (and will stay) square, strong, very rigid and actually rather attractive. Best of all, if you need a framing member that is 5 inches wide, you just rip one from a sheet of plywood. There is no need to try to sister a couple of 1 by 4’s together or go back to the lumber yard for a 1 by 6.
A bit more about the workspace- my basement “hobby” room. It is nothing fancy, old-style paneling and indoor/outdoor carpet but at least it is on the house central heat/air system and has an outside door to a patio where I can do my woodcutting. I am trying to stay within a 14’x15’ corner of the room for my full-size layout and work my way around the two walls and into the center for turn-arounds. I could go a lot bigger but also use the room for other hobbies so not ready to dedicate it all to a railroad (at least not yet!) The good news is that it has an adjoining shop that I set up for R/C airplanes which will be ideal for detail work, and it is already stocked with the sort of tools needed for scratch-building. I also have most of the tools needed for bench construction- miter saw, belt sanders, etc. along with the normal hand tools. But I don’t have a table saw- or a good place to use one inside. I would have to buy a small saw and drag it in and out to the patio to cut. So anything that involves ripping has a downside and I probably will stick with the dimensional lumber at least for my test layout.
Everyone has been very helpful. Thinking of going with the 1/2" hardwood, or maybe BC with thickness at least 1/2". And I will narrow my beam spacing a bit.
Just remember that the BC plywood is cheaper for several reasons. One is a rougher finish with patches meaning you will have to deal with lumps and bumps while laying track, building roads and adding scenery. Another is frequent voids in the inner plies creating weak points in the plywood. These voids are not much of a problem if the plywood is to remain flat. However, if you choose to cut out your subroadbed cookie-cutter style to enable grade changes, a void in an area where a grade transition will occur could cause serious problems. I would recommend you go with the 1/2" hardwood plywood as it has a nice smooth and attractive finish on BOTH sides and no voids in the inner plies. Yes, it is a few bucks more per sheet but well worth the investment.
Agreed generally, but I used the BC stuff with the voids, dips, and roughness for my layout exclusively this last time around, including the curved roadbed elements for my helix. Where I felt the voids or hollows were too severe for reliable trackage that one would want in a hard-to-access helix, I just filled the void with the same DAP caulking I was using as the flex track adhesive. Even then it was minimal.
I opted for 3/4" firply, good one side, and cut most of my curves from a couple of sheets of it. On the first sheet, I layed out the curves concentrically, starting at 30" and working up in 2" increments, while the second sheet started at 34" and worked upwards. Since I didn’t use a trackplan, I simply placed various curved sections on the open grid framework until I liked the way it flowed, then spliced together as many sections as was required. Straight areas (there aren’t a lot of them) were done with strips of 3/4" plywood or 3/4" pine boards of varying widths, as required. All risers are 16"o/c or less, and I used whatever material was on-hand. The roadbed is cork - I used yellow carpenter’s glue to affix it to the plywood, tacking it in place with partially-driven 2 1/2" nails (I had a 50lb. box of them leftover from building my house [swg] ) When the glue had dried, the nails were removed.
With this method of construction, the plywood will form its own vertical easements at the top and bottom of grades, and it’s easy to add superelevation to curves, too.
In 25 years of use, I have not found 1/2 inch BC Plywood to have been a problem. My layout is in my basement, where the temperature and humidity fluctuates greatly and I’ve had no problems.
I’m all in favor of people using what ever product they feel will do the best job for them. But, let’s also remember that the sub-roadbed is only a part of the matrix that makes up your layout with Cookie-Cutter construction . Cardboard strips, screen wire and plaster soaked towels/plaster impregnated cloth and castings are also a part of this matrix. Do not underestimate how much strength and rigidity is imparted on the whole by the addition of the scenic contour base to your layout.
A quick update- I have not yet begun construction because of rainy weather and business travel. But at least I have managed to get the area cleared out and ready. No changes to my basic plan except that I decided to build my test layout using the benchwork plan for phase 1 of my overall design. If it works out well then I will move into the corner and use it to continue on, if not then I will start over again with lessons learned. My test layout will be as shown in phase 1 except the inner loops will be closed at the top so I can run trains while playing around with grades on the outer track. I have the benchwork for phase 1 designed in ACAD and it should work OK with either the closed loops or as laid out in the final design.
Any comments on my overall design? It is a work in progress, and likely to undergo further changes as I learn. But think I am getting close. There are a few 24" curves but most are over 26" and all have 12" easements. All mainline turnouts are #6 and #8’s, with #5’s for some sidings. Track spacing is 2-1/2" minimum except on some of the straights which is 2". Trying to avoid S-curves, keep all turnouts within easy reach, provide access as needed, etc.
This is going in the trapped corner of a large L-shaped room and the layout is open to the room at the bottom and the lower half of the right side. Space is tight, but I think big enough to make it interesting. My goal is to get some long loops capable of running multiple trains through mostly rural hilly terrain, with just enough sidings and structures to justify existence of the RR. I am not a real railroad buff so have not studied yard operation and this is my first effort at coming up with a usable design in the limited space.
Before I jump in is there anything important that I am missing? (Just waiting for dry weather so I can get started!)
Another consideration, many that used a product such asAC, BC or even CDX from 25 years ago. Those grades of plywood, use of Douglas Fir etc, provided a far better product of the day than what is offered today. On tearouts/ demos, I will even salvage some of the fir plywood for reconstruction as it is difficult to match the overall quality and strength. You don’t nec, need to go to cabinet grade baltic birch, ( I would as a carpenter- even if way overkill), but a decent 5/8 or 3/4 BC Doug Fir would be fine. If you want to use 1/2" instead, the birch should fit the bill. You can also check into the sanded/ underlayment grades of plys (Underlayment PTS) as the inner plys tend to be “Void of voids” mainly due to the use for underlayment. Some of the “better” grading of the plywood products are generally found at reputable “lumber” yards and not always found at those big box stores.
You would need to goto a woodworking store like Rockler or woodcraft or a wood seller who has a big selection of wood but Baltic Birch plywood is beautiful stuff and its not that expensive and you could definitely get by with thinner pieces
