It may seem like an inane time to query about possible future high-speed intercity rail service in America given Amtrak’s perennial dire financial status, but has anyone heard about any recent regional or national attempts at starting an American equivalent of the Japanese Shinkansen or the French TGV? Here in South Korea (where I’m posting from), you’ll be able to travel from Seoul all the way across the country to Busan in less than three hours (it takes 5-6 by the freeway equivalent, and the roads are all turnpikes, fares constantly rising), and in nearby China they just opened a new China-Tibet service. There was an op-ed by former governor/presidential candidate Mike Dukakis in the LAT about a possible LA-SF high-speed rail corridor (it sounded good to me) but I gathered that the collective reaction in LA was a yawn, or mild disapproval. Any predictions about where we’ll be (if any further ahead than now) in, say, 2016 or 2021 w/r/t this issue, especially given several predictions about peak oil and the like?
The way I understand it (I am no expert) the deal ground to a halt because of dissagrements on routeing. They couldn’t agree on wheather to go over Pachecco pass and through San Jose to SF or go over Altamont and Bypass San Jose running into Oakland. There was also a proposal of another Las Vegas HSR project in the paper (Victorville I think) not too long ago, only this one would end in Victorville, about 65 miles short of LA. I wouldn’t hold my breath for either one.
I think that everyone is waiting for the second coming of Lyle Lanley
The Monorail song
Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!
…Hello Riprap…In reading your post I see the city of “Busan” mentioned and I’ve seen it a few other places in recent months listed as such…Question: Is that the city that is located at the southern tip of South Korea…and renamed…?? If so, thought that use to be Pusan…
And the mention of freeways or equivalent…just blows me away…Uncle Sam had me there 50 plus years ago and guess we all know what it was like then…For sure no turnpikes…Anyway…maybe you can clear up that city name for me…Thanks.
Sorry for the lag in replying, I’m about half a world away, so my down time doesn’t dovetail with yours…
Yeah, Pusan and Busan are the same city. Many Asian cities (Peiping/Peking/Beijing) have had this same progression to a different spelling. I’m not aware that there was ever any other name besides this one. It’s in the SE corner of the country. There’s a ferry that runs to Fukuoka, Japan from there, it’s the easiest way for foreign nationals like myself to do a “visa run” to exit and re-enter the country as needed.
South Korea really did change a whole bunch after the 1988 Olympics. As I’m sure you remember, you had these very thin mountain roads with hairpin turns all over the place around even ~1994-1996, the first time I was here. They’ve done a boatload of construction since then. Even with all the new construction, there are horrendous traffic jams on certain weekends on these very same turnpikes. But, as I said before, you can travel halfway across the country in two hours on high-speed rail connection. The leg between Daegu and Busan (KTX-dedicated) will not be finished for another 7 years or so, but it will get done. (That was one of the prompts for my question about the US). There are still parts of SK that probably haven’t changed much in the last 50 years, but the Busan-Daegu-Daejeon-Seoul corridor is leading the way.
I sure miss the "free"ways we have out west. Most likely all of America will have turnpikes before too long, eh??
Good Morning Riprap…Thank you for the reply. Interesting how the spelling must have changed on some of the names. That helps clear up what I have been seeing in print some places.
I entered the country at Inchon and was north of the 38 parallel for over a year back then…Have you ever heard of Chunchon…{believe that’s the spelling}. Passed through that town several times.
Enjoyed your info you provided.
Yes I realize it’s half way around the world from “home” when one is there…We stuck up a temp sign of our east coast being 10,000 miles distant.
By the way…rode on a train north from Inchon and with open and no windows passed through a tunnel and was really “smoked out”…Of course our power at that time was steam…! Not really high speed…ha…
Sure, the railroad saves a few hours over the turnpike, but what is the total average transit time from driveway to destination rail vs turnpike? Can the rail option still beat over the road transit time if you count the time delay in getting from home to railhead origin and railhead terminus to desired destination? If so, there is only one thing lacking to make rail the option of choice…
Do the Korean rails have an AutoTrain-type option for the traveller?
Yes, I’ve been through Chuncheon a couple of times. Very pretty location, lots of mountains. We’ve had some severe flooding just a couple weeks ago, and they got hit pretty hard. All the roads up there were closed for several days, ~50 casualties or so (province-wide). Chuncheon is famous for a very nice chicken dish, dakgarbi, (literally chicken ribs), made with chicken, sweet potatoes, onions, hot pepper sauce, etc. Seoul is a couple hours away by free-access road, that’s one of the locations where they’re currently constructing an expressway.
Incheon is the site of the newest int’l airport for Seoul, and therefore all of SK. They’ve built a very nice, state-of-the-art facility there. I believe they’ll have extended the subway system (the Purple Line?!) from Seoul directly to the Incheon Airport in another couple of years. The airport is a couple of years old. I’ve ridden the rails a few times, and no “smokings” to report (knock on wood)…
Yes, your underlying assumption that the tradeoff isn’t quite as favorable door-to-door is probably correct. That said, I would put more faith in the Korean public transportation than I do the American one. My guess is that the Amtrak Boston-Washington corridor would be the most comparable American conditions to Korean ones. After all of the various intercity expressway branches get finished, my guess is it won’t take much longer than four or five hours to get from any one place in SK to the other auto-wise. Problem is, a tank of gas here regularly costs between $60-80 (I think the US is still less than half that) and I think that significantly diminishes the previous time tradeoff. Also, intracity taxies are generally much cheaper at least to pay out of pocket (yes, the govt. subsidizes them so you get burned from both ends there) than they are in the US, and bus transportation is more reliable and less expensive (from my generalized experience).
I’m not familar with the relevant facts and figures, but I believe that Korean railroads are of a narrower gauge than American ones, and that this would discourage the AutoTrain arrangement. Also, I think that there must be some restriction about the length of Korean trains, simply because I’ve never seen a freight here running much longer than ~50 cars if that. The short answer to your question is, no, there is no AutoTrain-type option on Korean rails.
I realize that the US is a much bigger beast than SK is, and the eminent domain issues (especially the NIMBY types) in the US would in any event make such a national system in America much harder to conceive practically. I was a little surprised, though, that none of the answers in this thread so far have even held out much of a hope for some progress being made. I’m a big train buff, and I see this as our community’s version of getting the first man on the moon. Many geologists and others with the specia
…Good Morning Riprap: May be nighttime at your end…I notice you apply an “e” in Incheon and Chuncheon…Maybe I’m just remembering those spellings wrong…
Chuncheon was nothing but dirt streets and huts, goods being hawked to GI’s in my passing…and we can’t forget the young {and I mean young}, females for “hire” as we passed…Simply a war time scene…Not pretty. Little kids {carrying a smaller one}, pleading for food…Nasty.
Your word picture of Incheon with new airport and rail facilities, etc…contrasts to the era I speak of…We entered via landing craft…30 or so ft. tides there…
I don’t remember what gauge the rails were and they may have changed since then.
I do understand having floods this time of the year as it is entering the monsoon season…Pontoon bridges got us across several waterways…
What a contrast it must be now between north and south Korea…! Somehow I wish the country could be reunited…and the Dictator done away with for good in N K. Perhaps it will come to that somehow someday.
Yes, many parts of SK look radically different from what they must have in the '50s. Spelling here is always a bit whimisical. I’m just trying to follow the local standards. To wit, they’re always confusing "p"s with "b"s, "t"s with "d"s, and "k"s with "g"s (strange for a culture that prides itself on its written intelligence).
My guess is that you’ll be able to find that which you described in almost any country here in East Asia, even today. That’s essentially why they’re still eating dog soup (booshintang) and fried grasshoppers as a faux snack food (they’re not wildly popular, but you can still find them in some rural outposts, I think).
Somehow, I doubt that the gauge of the rails have changed (but don’t know empirically)…
Yes, this is the monsoon season, but nothing catastrophic weatherwise almost ever happens in SK, or is expected to…
Everyone and his brother has the same wish that the Koreas could reunite, but are somewhat restrained by the economic realities (think Germany) that could result if it actually happened. I was somewhat surprised that a fairly large number of young Korean college grads (I work in a college here) express an interest in leaving Korea after they graduate from school here. When asked why they wanted to leave, many responses were that the “social dirtiness” of the country was just too high (difficulty in finding an apt., or a good school, or a good job, unless you knew the right people). Intermarriage with other countries’ nationals are on the increase, too, both among men and women.
Thanks for all your thoughts and updates on the various subjects. It’s been so long ago but I did spend about 16 months of my life there doing the job for Uncle Sam.
Enjoy all the info you relate…
I must pull up a Korean map on here and take a look…I haven’t looked closely at the country for years and time erases some memory of details.
Years ago I had a stack of Rand McNalley maps {large ones}, and for some reason I got rid of them…One was a Korean peninsula map, a good one. Should have retained that one.
Thanks for the show of spirit!! As I said before, I quite understand that the size and logistics of our country will always make this a hard sell, but we could use a lot more electricity (generation of which has its own problems, but is looking pretty good if you’re watching the ME about now) and a lot less gas. I have some other questions about passenger-dedicated lines, but I’ll save it (them) for another forum thread. This is on us, my friends. If we don’t care about it, we can’t expect anybody else to either…
Riprap
P.S.–I’ll check out that link you mentioned, thanks for passing it along.
