One further item. AMTRAK has already met with some car builders about building the additional viewliners. If AMTRAK holds the patent rights for all systems on those cars they may be able to build the additional cars fairly rapidly where as getting the necessary licenses for the NJ Transit cars may be a problem. Anyone know who designed them and if there are propriertary items???
That does not preclude using the NJ Transit designs in the future. We need the cars now although I hope they operate better and are quieter!!
Passengers all trains =19998170 Revenue = $1,189,563,554
Passengers on long distance = 3,031,929 Revenue = $ 295,136,330
Passengers (Sleeper only on long distance trains) = 436,588 Revenue = $106,180,500
So it seems that the passengers in sleepers are a small percentage of the passenger load (2% overall; 14% LD), but a make significantly larger contribution to revenue, especially of the long distance trains (36% LD;8.9%overall). It seems counter-intuitive, but I guess they are subsidizing long distance service. Maybe we should be talking a return of all-Pullman luxury!!
By passengers, do you mean passenger boardings or passenger miles? Sleeper passengers typically travel twice the distance as coach passengers, and as such account for more passenger miles than suggested by the passenger count, and as such, their contribution to revenue per passenger mile is not as strong as suggested.
OK, so sleeping car service accounts for 36% of revenue on the LD trains. What if sleeping car service accounted for 50% of cost in locomotives, fuel, crew, and train car expenses of maintenance, interest, and amortization?
Suppose the “typical” LD train has 2 locomotives, 4 non-revenue cars (baggage, crew-dorm, lounge, diner), 4 coaches, and 4 sleepers. The controversial suggestion had been to ascribe the cost of the second locomotive, all four non-revenue cars, and the four sleepers to first-class service – do without, and you are down to a “corridor” consist of 1 locomotive and 4 coaches. If that is too Spartan, how about the Pacific Cascades Talgo consist of one locomotive, coaches (the Talgos are half-length – do they run a 12-car consist?) plus the NPCC – a mix of coach and “business class” service with some kind of “cafe” food service taking up one Talgo car or half a conventional coach?
If the sleeping passenger were paying their way and then some, I would say “build more sleeping cars to improve the bottom line of the LD trains.” But it is not entirely clear this is the case, only the suggestion that this is not the case has elicited protest from portions of the advocacy community.
Paul: I’m saying I was surprised by the metrics. “Passengers” means head count, not passenger miles. I don’t know where to find the metrics that analyze expenses, but even without that info I have to begrudging admit that the sleeper passenger makes a substantial contribution. The data Amtrak publishes (it’s on their website) breaks it down for different routes. Some are obviously a waste (Cardinal, Sunset, to name a few) while others look sustainable (EB). So the original premise that you and I and others hold about moving on from the nostalgia, though true, needs to be carefully applied. Some LD service is probably a given. Which routes and what mix of coach and sleeper needs analysis. Also should it remain a mission of Amtrak or be left to cruise lines?
Unfortunately, Amtrak’s Monthly Operating Reports, as well as quarterly and annual financial reports, do not present a detailed breakdown of the expense side of the accounting equation. Thus, it is not possible to determine whether sleeping car passengers are covering their proportional share of the operating expenses associated with hauling them in first class comfort.
Sleeping cars are more expensive to buy, maintain, service, and overhaul. They are probably more expensive to haul because of heavier weights, although I don’t know how much more costly. If I remember correctly, a report published in 2005 or thereabouts showed that sleeping car passengers actually receive a larger subsidy than coach passengers. In any case, only about 2.2 per cent of Amtrak’s passengers can afford to pony up the money to travel in Amtrak’s sleeping cars, which means the service is used largely by upper income people.
My first choice would be to scrap the long distance trains, in which case sleeping cars would not be an issue, and devote the resources to enhancing high density corridors or developi
Sam1: The Australian tilt train is interesting; $310.00 (Aus) for a one-way business seat fare. 1681 km in 23h 55 min. (1041 mi.) They call it high speed, 43mph, but it does sound very pleasant on a scenic coastal route.
Getting rid of the worst offenders on LD travel would be a very positive first step, but I agree, the few riders of the Cardinal, Sunset and other poorly patronized trains will try to stop that.
I frequently ride the Florida trains, and I would really like to see the new food service cars equipped with pantographs so the train doesn’t have to be cold and dark while they change engines in DC. It would be a small price to improve the quality of the “on board experience.” In the 1970’s German railroads had manually operated pans under the control of the dining car steward. It should be easy enough to duplicate this procedure .
They should be able to do the engine change in 5 minutes. It shouldn’t be an issue… In the 1980s’ they could do the engine change at New Haven and Croton-Harmon in less time than that. There is nothing unique about Union Station DC.
The Queensland Railway is a 3 foot, six inch gage railroad. It is a big time operation; it completely changed my mind about narrow gage railways.
Whilst the average speed on the Tilt Train is not spectacular, it gets near the 100 mph mark on certain stretches of the route. Moreover, at least in business class, passengers can view the track ahead through a display screen in the front of the car. The camera is mounted in the noise of the power car. It is a hoot.
Just one more thing to do during an engine change… If you’ve ever watched them work the engine change on the Crescent, you’d understand why it takes so long. Lots of bodies. Only one of 'em doing anything - and he ain’t hustling. It should be simple. Train arrives. Engineer dumps the air and knocks off the HEP - give 3 point protection. Passengers get off. Ground man pulls 480V cables and control cable. Pulls pin. Inbound engineer pulls ahead. Tower throws switch. Outbound power with outbound engineer already on board backs down and couples. Gives 3 point protection. Ground man makes up 480V and control cable, air hoses. Power up HEP. Do brake test with outbound conductor (or second ground man) positioned at rear of train. Passengers board. Highball!
A couple of observations: Way back in 1982, I was in South Amboy watching the engine change during PM rush on the NY&LB. Two carmen were assigned to break the air, steam and signal connections and pull the pins to cut off the electric and then made the same connections to the replacement diesels. It took about five minutes, as noted above. The carmen also saved the air on the passenger consist. No HEP at the time.
Even further back, about 1965 or so, I was riding the Peninsula 400 from Chicago to Marinette WI. The train was long haul bi-levels and HEP equipped. We sat in the dark for about 10-15 minutes in Green Bay while short-haul coaches, the parlor-coach, coach-lounge and dining car were cut from the consist. For the limited time involved, standby HEP power would have been a nuisance due to safety considerations (480 volts AC can create a pretty good arc if the line isn’t dead when it’s plugged into the car).
Currently, on Metra’s Southwest Service, our consist is in the dark for about 2-3 minutes while it is cut over from standby power to the locomotive starting about 10 minutes prior to departure time.
The alternative to the locomotive change is the dual-power locomotive, but those are expensive and have a spotted history of reliability.
I’ve got it. How about some kind of automated coupler that makes and breaks the air and electrical connections? Don’t they have those such things on some mass transit equipment?
Yes, it would require a special coupler on some locomotives and passenger equipment. You would not need this throughout the fleet, only for locomotives and head-end cars on the trains involved. But would this be more expensive or difficult to implement than, say, a dual-service locomotive with its 3rd rail shoes?
I much prefer the “Viewliner” sleeping cars to our local (“Empire Builder”) Superliners! I would suggest removing the silly TV in the rooms. Damn! There is so much to look at, ‘out there’, even in the dark. My “Viewliner” experiences have only been on the “Lake Shore Limited” and my biggest complaint is of the “Georges”. Too bad they can’t get attendants from, for example, Portland, OR or Seattle crew-bases.
Actually, I think the “Viewliner” shower is better than that in the “Superliners”.
I have never been on a train with a “Viewliner” dining car (do they exist?) and look forward to the experience. Too bad O’Bama’s “Cash-for-Clunkers” deal didn’t encompass “Amfleet” cars, a.k.a.: “Sardine Cans”!
Back in “the old days”, the New York Central’s change from steam/Diesel to electric power (and v. v.) at Harmon and North White Plains, NY was a thing-of beauty! Two guys, on-the-ground, and the replacement locomotive in a “holding/pocket” track. Didn’t take two minutes, I think, even with steam line re-hook-up. Up, and away, in no time, and the guys were all unionized, too! They didn’t know about FDR’s “shovel-leaner” policy and sure didn’t get paid well.
While rapid transit cars and some MU cars in suburban service do have couplers that include electrical connections, I doubt that any of the electrical lines carry 480 volts. A live line with 480 volts is a safety hazard and will create a pretty good arc (I speak from experience) before a positive connection is made. The 480 volt line would have to include a switch near the coupler to ensure that the connector is dead when a coupling or uncoupling is made. So you’re back to the original situation.
The HEP lines weren’t a big issue at New Haven when Amtrak swapped AEM7s for F40s in the 1980s and 1990s. The Engineer knocks down the HEP, the ground men do their thing, inbound power pulls ahead, outbound power backs down, ground me do their thing, clear out and the outbound engr flips the HEP back on, and away you go! Five minutes.
Uh, oh! I see a couple of problems with the “pan on the dining car” idea. Off goes the 480 v. AC, in comes the 11,000 v. AC. “How would you like your fires? Burned, or incinerated?”. Having on-board personnel raise a dining car pantograph would give the union officials appoplexy. Maybe an on-duty “Pan Man”, from the Teamsters (BLE) could do the job, but, in the winter, he’d get cold, waiting for the next LD train.
We had Operating Engineer “oilers” on construction jobs in NYC. They would come in an hour early and ‘oil around’ (even on greaseless electric hoists) and spend the rest of their 8 + 1-hour (OT) day in a bar. Nice job, if you were related to the Business Agent! The next-best job was “operator” of elevators, that would punch buttons, even after the elevators were fully-automatic. They were from the Elevator Constructor’s union. Again, nepotism ruled! At least, he had to stay on the job, mostly.
Without First Class/Sleeping car passengers, all LD trains would be losers. We, the hoi polloi, subsidize the “cattle car” class. At four (+) times the coach fare, we pay for the dining car and the lounge cars, although I can’t believe the lounge cars lose money at $4.50 to $5.50 for a beer! My last southbound trip on the “City of New Orleans” was delightful. I got the last filet mignon on board, unless some were reserved for the crew. My tablemates ate some rusty-looking rice, with critters in it! I was happy! They were happy! Oh, joy!!!
My last three trips on the “Empire Builder”, this summer, although short-hops, were not as delightful. I couldn’t get the vaunted Buffalo Meatloaf westbound. I couldn’t get an American beer on two, of the three, trips. Amtrak serves swill from “Anheuser-Busch InBev” (Belgian-owned Budweiser and Bud Light) and “SABMiller” (South African-owned Miller Lite and Leinenkugel), almost to the exclusion of American beers. I finally did get a Samuel Adams (Boston Brewing) on my last trip. I am going to speak, harshly, with Amtrak, about that! I think Amtrak should only serve beers made by American-owned companies. How much do Belgium or South Africa contribute to their bottom line? Why should we contribute to theirs?