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New York issues compromise on Adirondack rail line
I doubt any analysis of economic benefit can be so precise as to differentiate between $2.6 million for one proposal and $2.7 for another, with any meaningful degree of confidence. The reality is the rail will be removed and once gone, will never be put back.
This is shear idiocy. There are trails throughout the region. The cost of removing the rails will cost taxpayers more money than the trail will ever generate. A train ride to lake placid trumps a trail to nowhere any day. I’d travel there to ride a train but never to use a trail.
Kalmbach publishes a magazine called “American Snowmobiler”. You can see it along with the others named at the very bottom of the Trains home page.I assume that it is read by people on the other side of this argument. I wonder if AS has published any arguments from the railroad side? Perhaps Jim Wrinn could write a guest editorial in American Snowmobiler outlining our side of the story.
I agree with both of you wholeheartedly !! This whole compromise thing is just PURE LUNACY !!!
“Compromise?”…Wouldn’t that be both a trail and the railroad?
Wow breathtaking stupidity.
Penny wise and pound foolish, to so kowtow to the trail enthusiasts. To enable trains to run through to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid, both big tourist centers, would be such a boon to the whole area. Not that Tupper Lake is a “nothing” town - it isn’t - but to end a rail line so short of larger towns is just plain stupid. And yes, Jim Norton, a true compromise would be both the railroad and a recreation trail, as has been done elsewhere in the country.
Let’s see about the math: income: $2.6million with train only. Scrap a bunch of the railroad and put in a bunch of trail and income goes up a measly $0.1million. What would income look like with those rails restored and train service all the way? $3.7million per year? Why didn’t anyone explore that alternative?
The APA is merely ruling on whatever the rail-trail proposal fits into thje master plan, the final decision will be made by the governor via the DEC and NYSDOT. Some news sites including Trains are jumping the gun here I think, the APA is not in charge, DEC and NYSDOT are, they are just saying that a rail trail is OK by them.
This isn’t over yet, plenty of lawsuits to come. Everyone (to the displeasure of the state government) is unhappy and mad.
Mr Wrinn, I respectively submit that your otherwise competent magazine of which I have been a lifelong reader has done a poor job of reporting the dangerous precedent of an active line being ripped up for a trail. Late this spring, the entire northern 36-mile portion of the line that is slated to be removed in 2017 will be ‘in service’. A combination of both ASR and Rail Explorer USA operations will cover the line from Tupper lake to Lake Placid.
When an active railroad is being threatened by rail to trail advocates, one would think that TRAINS Magazine would be motivated to publish a hardcopy article regarding the controversy. You may think them odd, but the low overhead and moderate start-up costs of commercial railbikes in lieu of full-size excursion equipment could help save a lot of threatened railroads nationwide. Even an obscure, non-railroad journal called the New York Times is on top of this unique story:
From the New York Times article: “The railroad opened in 1892 and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.” Wouldn’t this impose some legal limitations on pulling up the track?
Interesting question Mr Forbes, I too would like an answer.
OK, Tupper Lake is a nice place to vacation, but doesn’t have the popularity and historical tradition that Saranac Lake and Lake Placid (site of two Winter Olympics) have.
It’s my personal belief that the NEW developers, that are investing millions of dollars in Tupper Lake, trying to turn it into a tourist’s ‘mecca’ similar to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid, are somehow involved in this ’ scheme ', by lobbying the politicians locally and in Albany !!.
This so-called " compromise " would give them (Tupper Lake) the best of both ’ worlds ', while taking away the advantage of rail service from the other two more popular and well known resort communities.
I believe this would be a HUGE MISTAKE since the Olympic Authority is interested in vying for the Winter Olympics again !!
I’ve posted on this issue before. This time I note that only one of the 13 comments preceding this one was from New York. Maybe those not from New York should refrain unless they know the full story.
The reality is that all rehabilitation to Class II condition has been paid for with public monies, not what the railroad has earned from transporting passengers. Additionally, the railroad receives an annual payment from the state of $250,000 - $350,000 or around 20% of their operating budget.
Lake Placid is a major tourist destination, but I question how many would choose the six hour train ride from Utica that is proposed in their business plan. And that’s six hours after however many hours on the train to get to Utica. Under most conditions (for those of you not from New York) driving time from the biggest potential market, New York City, is five hours.
In 1980, 140 miles of single-track railroad managed over a two week span to deliver about 5,000 passengers to Lake Placid for those Olympics. The total number of spectators was way more than that. To make a real difference in Olympic transportation, the line would need the ability to daily deliver multiple trainloads of thousands of spectators. Since all those trains couldn’t just pile up in Lake Placid there would have to be multiple sidings constructed with CTC and remotely-operated switches to keep the railroad fluid. Surely most would agree that this would be an unacceptable one-time expense when a well-designed bus system could meet the transportation need on the existing roads.
I could go on about the many reasons why rail just isn’t appropriate on this particular piece of track, but I will leave the above comments for now.
Mr. James (Tony) Goodwin,
Who are you to judge the knowledge of what you refer to as “the full story” ! Your arrogance is getting more evident every time you make one of your ’ broken record ’ comments !
I’ve lived most of my life in New York State and just because I’m living in Florida for the winter, doesn’t necessarily indicate that I don’t “know the full story”. concerning the STUPIDITY and LACK OF VISION concerning this compromise.!
Oh, you’re great at spewing out all these dollar figures, but like you said, " I question" how many people would choose to ride from Utica to Lake Placid, so you don’t " know the full story " either ! Your comments are based almost entirely on speculation.
We all are smart enough to realize that the majority of the Olympic spectators wouldn’t take the train to Lake Placid, but are also smart enough to know that it could relieve some of the congestion on the winding, mountainous highways, that are only two lanes !
You don’t have to be from N.Y. to know that, IF IT SMELLS LIKE A SKUNK, IT PROBABLY IS ONE !!!
So Mr. Klippel, you have lived in New York State, but what do you say to the 80+ businesses in Tupper Lake that have just recently signed a petition favoring the trail. You are in Florida and clearly not running a business in Tupper Lake.
Even more significantly, the owners of Charlies Inn in Lake Clear Junction have acknowledged that they did see some benefit from last summer’s rail bike venture, but they continue to believe that the removal of the rails would help them far more. Again, you are not the one operating that business, so how can you say what is best for them.
In my view, it is the rail supporters who lack vision. They want to keep a 19th Century mode of transportation going in the 21st Century even if it requires an ongoing government subsidy. Yes, the rails will provide a service to the aged and the handicapped, but to keep from losing population in this region we need amenities and facilities that attract and hold young families. That is what rail trails have done elsewhere, and that is why we are fighting to make it happen here.
Mr. Goodwin, I still live in New York State, and only live the winters in Florida. I would say to the owners of the 80+ businesses in Tupper Lake, that I applaud them and admire them for all their hard work and commitment to make their businesses a success. I would also tell them that they certainly are entitled to sign a petition and have their own opinion, but that doesn’t necessarily make them right !
Also, Mr. Goodwin, Is anyone speaking out for the (I’m sure more than 80+) businesses in Saranac Lake and Lake Placid ? I don’t recall reading anything about their opinions!
To me you seem a lot more concerned about your ’ little utopia ’ ( Tupper Lake ) than you do about any rights of the citizens and tax payers of NYS, that actually own the right of way and track.
You claim " more significantly " ? that after ONLY the 1st summer season for the ’ rail bike venture ', the owners of Charlie’s Inn " continue to BELIEVE " removal of the track would help them more. Amazing !!!
I’m not just focused on what’s best for them, but what is best for NYS as a whole !!!
Say, aren’t bicycles a 19th century mode of travel also ? The thing is, a rail trail is always just that, a trail , but a railroad right of way can always be up-graded and improved !
You don’t seem to have a problem with government subsidies to build and maintain and patrol rail- trails, only railroads ! Very interesting, for sure !
I would proclaim that JOBS are what attract and hold young families, though recreational amenities and facilities are important also. You claim that having rail-trails has been the case elsewhere, but I ask WHERE ?
I’ve rode on rail-trails over the years,and for the most part the riders are middle-aged folks riding the longer distances and a few younger people walking or riding shorter ones. I see very few families using them together, and also not a big influx to businesses, maybe a couple bike shops near the trails.
I would conclude by stating that JOBS are more likely to be created long-term, by RAIL ROADS, not rail-trails !!!
The funny thing is the trail advocates claim the train creates polution yet they say nothing about air polution from snowmobiles and ATV’s. As for maintance they are clueless about how much ATV and dirt bike riders will rip it up along with snowmobile riders that ride when the snow is not deep. Anyplace that allows ATV’s finds that they greatly conflict with bike riders. ATV’s riders tend to have far to many outlaws that could care less about anyone else. iving here in NH I have experianced the conficts first hand.