As a recent train-watching trip to the Folkston “funnel” in far southern Georgia proved, I know next to nothing about the history (both operational and merger-wise) of the “Seaboard” side of the lines that came to form CSX, not much about L&N, and am not really sure when the “Family Lines” and “Seaboard System” concepts came in and who it included. (I’m a little less ignorant about C&O/B&O/Chessie.)
I snagged a bargain at alibris.com and ordered one book called CSX written by a man named Solomon and another called Seaboard Coast Line and Family Lines Railroad 1967-1986, author a Mr. Griffin.
Feel free to give your opinions of these two books if you like, but what I’m really curious about is what other books or source material you consider essential to learn about and understand the whole Seaboard “thang.” I’m up here in Chicago, so while learning about local C&O and ex-Pere Marquette would also be interesting, I’m pretty much two regions away from the exact topics that currently interest me.
ACL/SAL/SCL/Seaboard System/L&N/Clinchfield/Family Lines and all things Chessie: My head is spinning!
I’ve also posted a version of this request on CLASSIC TRAINS. Hope that’s OK to do.
I cant go into details(cause Idont know all that much about their history), but I do know it was an early way to get aruond ICC merger hearings. instead of a full on merger, they went with the fairly new bussines model of holding companies. Cheesie wasnt the railroad, it was a paper holding company and B&O/C&O were more or less intergrated subsidaries. same with Family Lines and Seaboard Systems. Southern did the same with the Georgia Central(or was it the Georgia Road). it was easier and faster to do it this way. ICC regulates mergers, but cant do to much about a seperate “non-railroad” entity from owning more than one railroad, as long as the y dont formally merge. Theres ALOT more to it than that, but it’s the simple man’s version of it.
oh yea, the Pennsy/N&W thing. from what I gather THAT could fill volumes. I dont know how true, but I’ve heard N&W finally absorbed Virgina(after owning it for several years) because they were afraid of Pennsy use their “shared” ownership to take over Virginia and drop N&W, leaving them alone to copmete against B&O and C&O alone, without an outside connection. Then theres the whole D&H thing after the PC merger. Another Pennsy RR that PC didnt want (they owned it to compete with NYC, it was now redundent) and N&W got it shoved down their throat after PC’s NYC management raped it. Probably out of revenge for being a pain for years. NYC management was known for revenge in the PC days. No. 1 reason it failed in my opinion.
There is an excellent Map of the Month in the Feb 2005 Trains showing a 1957 merger study of ACL+SAL. This merger took 10 years, complicated by ACL’s ownership of the L&N and several other railroads.
No. PC was run (poorly) by the PRR bunch, like Saunders and Bevan. They got rid of the NYC management, who were clearly superior to those Philadelphia guys.
Generally the connection between L&N and ACL goes back to 1902 when ACL purchased 51% of the common stock of the L&N. In 1924-25 the two roads obtained the lease of the Clinchfield. L&N’s Cumberland Valley division connected it with the Clinchfield, Interstate RR and the N&W ( in the 70’s). Merger discussions began in the early 60’s and in 1967 the Family Lines Rail System name was adopted although each road keep its own identity. In 1980 Chessie and Seaboard Coast Line Industries formed CSX Corporation. Hope this helps if you have more ?s send me an e-mail.
I know that L&N has one, because I am a member. I am sure that the others have their own type of membership to preserve the history of those roads. There are plenty of books now on L&N through their society. They are all full of a wealth of knowledge pertaining to the L&N. They are cheaper to buy if you’re a member.
I know that there is a Chessie System Diesel book out there also. I have one. I always liked the Chessie System logo on the locomotives.
I don’t recall hearing about or seeing the Family Lines System until late 1974, when I saw an ad on the back of an Official Guide. The SCL merger was in 1967, but The L&N and Clinchfield were largely operated as separate railroads for a while thereafter, in spite of their ownership.
I will throw in a couple of points here. Originally Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line competed from Richmond, Va (both connected with the RF&P) down the coast to Florida with lines to Portsmouth/Norfolk, Atlanta, Birmingham, Montgomery, and other Southeastern cities.
Both railroads had very good NYC-Florida passenger service back in the day with the ACL having the East and West Coast Champions and the SAL having the Comet and Meteor. Thru service to NYC and beyond via the PRR and New Haven.
They merged in 1967. They then merged with the L&N, with connections, as previously stated with the Clinchfield Railroad. The L&N had acquired the Monon and the Evansville - Chicago portion of the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, thus the new entity had access to Chicago. Today the C&EI is the critical line for CSX entering Chicago from the south. Their yard is Yard Center in Dolton area. The Monon line came up from Louisville and ended in Hammond with access via a terminal railroad. The Monon line is gone north of Munster. If you travel on the Borman Expressway just east of the stateline you can see where the ex Monon yard was.
So, basically the Southeast developed into two camps…Family Lines, as described above vs the Southern Railway. Southern (a completely different story) looked for years to gain access to the Chicago market, exploring options via Illinois Central, MoPac (would have been a KILLER merger) and even the Milwaukee Road, which had a route from Louisville to Chicago over their own line to Bedford, In and then trackage rights to Louisville on the Monon.
Southern merged with Norfolk Western in about 1982 or so. This gave them access to the Chicago market via the ex Nickel Plate line which runs from Chicago (Calumet Yard on the SE side) down thru my hometown of Valparaiso to Fort Wayne then down to Cincinnati.
In my opinion the NS is a far superior railroad. But the entire devel
<sorry for glitching up the quote function; MP173 full post is above the one above>
What a wonderfully concise and informative post, Ed. It’s really beginning to come together in a dates-and-such way; as a result I am less confused and have a better idea of how to proceed.
Your idea of e-bay’ing an old Official Guide to the Railways is a good one. When I was in my early teens I got interested in passenger trains and followed the goings-on in the three years prior to Amtrak. (Collected timetables, too, but that’s another matter.)
As for The Men Who Loved Trains, that crummy news stand at Ogilvie that thinks it’s a bookstore didn’t have it – so I’ll order it thru amazon or Historic Rail.
Once again thanks for your spot-on information and kindness. - al
There is an ACL/SAL historical society which has a pretty good website, IIRC. Sorry, don’t have the URL.
In the ACL/SAL merger of 1967, SAL was very much the junior partner, because it was a poorer RR before the merger. Don’t know when one of the tracks was pulled up, but at one time ACL had a double-track mainline from Richmond to Jacksonville which ran very near the Atlantic coast and through or near the big cities located there; SAL was almost entirely a single-track road further inland, with branches to the coastal cities. Some of SAL’s line ran through pretty desolate country, Richmond-Norlina (NC) and Savannah-Jacksonville being prime examples (these two segments are abandoned or sold off to short lines). The present CSX headquarters building was actually built or started by SAL.
I’m sure they would rather have the second track on the B&O than the second track on the ex-ACL; if I understand correctly, the ex-B&O is how the traffic from the former Conrail territory gets to Chicago. However, they would probably love to have at least parts of the former ACL between Richmond and Jax double-tracked again, because it’s a busy piece of railroad. I’m not faulting them, at the time it was pulled up it was probably the right decision because a single track with good signalling, power switches, etc. could handle the traffic, but things have changed since that time. I wonder if or when (more likely when) they will put back at least parts of the second track on that line.
I also wonder if or when they will double-track the former ACL between Waycross and Manchester, GA (where the line splits for Birmingham and Atlanta). I think that line is pretty busy, too. Any thoughts? Where is anb740 when we need him?
I think Dale was referring to the former B&O line which was abandoned in Ohio which ran from Cincinnati to Cumberland, Md. This was the line which ran to St. Louis. Thus, their interchange traffic from St. Louis from UP had to go to Cincy, turn left and go to Deshler then turn right and go to cumberland. Now, it runs on the ex PRR and NYC main from St. Louis (actually Salem, Il) to Indy.
The significance of severing that line was that when CSX and NS sat down to parcel out the Conrail lines CSX had to have the Conrail line to St. Louis. They had no other viable option. So they got that and then NS started running the table.
Just reading your posts I have found them intersting since I don’t know much about the CSX outside of Central Ky. Every since the time machine I made from a 54 Studebaker got hit by a trio of RS3s just outside of Bonnieville I been stuck in the late 50’s early 60’s admiring my grandfather’s L&N. The CV ran from Corbin, Ky to Norton Virginia and is still in service today. As a matter of fact in 1999 when Ron Flanery published his book Cumberland Valley Division Album it still had a mainline switchback in operation at Hagans.The switchback turned trains 90 degrees and gained 102 feet in elevation. I would have to look through my back issues of the L&N Magazine but I think that it is now no longer in service but I am not sure. Al if you are interested the L&N Hstorical Society’s web site is www.rrhistorical.com/lnhs and their Sept. magazine had a story by Ron Flanery “After You’ve Gone”. It is a pictorial of the years since 1982. In this issue there is a notice of abadonment of 12.99 miles of the CV including parts of the Poor Fork Branch.
