II think that the article made a little confusion. There were two different things mixed together:
- Yard and switching service - Normal train service.
We live in year 2003 and the computer and RC technologies are at such a high level that it is 100 % possible to run a train complete under RC.
BUT:
Who enters a plane when he knows that the pilot is sitting in a room at the ground ? Who enters a train when he knows that the engineer is a computer ?
I think nearly nobody!
So the answer for a remote controlled train system is easy. It will not work because of psychological effects!
There is a limit what a human person allows a computer to do without human control!
Behind this limit, there must be a last instance that agree the work of the computer: A pilot in the cockpit or the engineer in the cab!
And this is also the reason for the, let me say so, „dooropener“ at BART and so.
A plane fly its route by autopilot. But there are two pilots in the cockpit and they agree or disagree the job of the autopilot. And they starts and make the landing because this phases are so dangerous. When something happens there is no time for a computer to find an answer and make a reaction, the reaction must come in the moment. And this is only possible with a human pilot! A computer needs first input from sensors than he makes a decision.
Here in Germany we run our highspeed passengertrains (ICE) at the new lines under full centralized computer control.
When an ICE enter a so called LZB district (LZB is the name of the centralized com-puter system) the engineer notch the trottle to the position „AFB“ that means that dri-ving and breaking is now under centralized computer control. The computer then knows the exact position of a train at every time, there is a permanent data transfer between train and computer. Not via r
There is a joke among the aircraft cockpit designers.
On the first fully automated flight across the ocean, after takeoff, a voice announces:
“Welcome to the first truly automated flight to dah, London. This system has been thoroughly tested. Nothing can go wrong …can go wrong …can go wrong …”
Smith’s corolary to Finagle’s rules or Murphy’s laws, Genius cannot defeat idiots!
Lindsay
We set up two forums for Railroads – one for general discussion, and one for additions and comments to Trackside Guides. That’s this one. Please start new threads on everything EXCEPT Trackside Guides in the other forum, in order that this one can serve its purpose. Thanks!
Much of the excitment I get from “railfanning” involves the “human” equation. I’m all grown up, but I still wave at every train crew of every train that I’m lucky enough to experience. I hate to say it, but the day human beings are no longer a part of the trains is the day I might start turning my back on the trains.
Sometimes so-called “progress and efficiency” exact a greater toll on us than we notice at the moment, and its only farther down the line we realize that in our earlier haste we might have lost something more important to our humanity. Is the end purpose of most technology in the workplace to reduce humans to mere spectators, void of skills and craftsmanship, who simply push buttons? This series of fine articles in September TRAINS reminds me of the TWILIGHT ZONE episode in which foundry owner Mr. Wipple automated the entire factory, putting hundreds of men out of work, until the machines put him out on the street.
I just hope I’m gone from this “place of no common sense” before No Man Trains start rolling down the tracks.
Since you are in Germany, have you heard about Cargomover?
It is a fully automated freight train. It has no cab! Just a video camera (plus some other automatic sensing devices that work even under dense fog)
It is currently under test, but it is expected to hit the mainlines within a few years.
First, there were RC switchers un Germany. Now there are in the US. Then, unmanned trins will run in Germany…
It’s called progress.
[:D]There is no way you can replace people [:)]completely in the running of trains. There are too many variables out side of the yards. Even in the yards you still need people to couple and uncouple the cars[8D][:p]. The last time I was at a yard they still needed a person to do this activity. Unless you keep trains in a vacuum there will still be problems that an engineer will have to make snap decisions on. Other variables that need to be considered would be animals on the tracks, debris on the tracks, people on the tracks… You can see that people are going to have to be with the trains.[:D][:p]
A quick response to the “no man” trains, it has been reported in the past couple of weeks that the massive power failure in the northeast may have been averted if some of the “engineers” had reacted to the actual failure instead of assuming they had a computer failure when the system began to go down.
No matter how good the technology, no matter how fast it reacts, only the human mind can make an intelligent decision and complete an un-programmed action, one that will save a life or avoid an accident.
I believe the trains at Expo 67 here in Montreal were ‘unmanned’ but they were just a shuttle between the two different parts of the site. Please correct me if I’m mistaken.
WHAT ARE THEY CRAZY? WHO ARE WE GOING TO WAVE AT? BAD ENOUGH THEY DID AWAY WITH CABOOSE. FRED HAS NEVER WAVED BACK!! SERIOUSLY COMPUTERS ARE GREAT. BUT IF I AM RIDING AT 100 + MPH I’D LIKE TO THINK THERE IS SOME ONE UP FRONT THATS GOING TO GET THERE FIRST. I THINK THAT RADIO CONTROL HAS A PLACE IN YARDS, INDUSTRIAL OR SWITCHING SITUATIONS , BUT NOT ON MAIN LINE TRAINS. HERE’S A THOUGHT, WHY ARE MANY PASSENGER TRAINS RUN WITH ONLY THE ENGINEER IN THE CAB, FREIGHT TRAINS MUST BE MORE VALUABLE THAN PASSENGERS. SEE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE CAPTAIN OF THE FERRY IN NYC LEFT THE OTHER FELLOW BE HIMSELF. THAT COULD HAPPEN ON A PASSENGER TRAIN AND MOST LIKLY ALREADY HAS.
YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SAFETY WHAT ABOUT A STALLED VEHICLE ON THE TRACKS OR A CHILD/ADULT WALKING TO THE STORE VIA RR TRACKS A COMPUTER CANT SEE THEM AND WEB CAMS ARENT SO PERFECT SO AT LEAST KEEP TWO PEOPLE IN THE CAB
I can see RC in the yards but running over the road trains with nobody in the cab has got to be the dumbest idea since abolishing cabooses.[8][:(!][xx(]
By the way,did you see that UP ran another "engineless"train Monday?(Trains Mag Newswire).This one was out of Pocatello Yard.Some railroads never learn![:0][B)][8]
I don’t think they will work in the yards either. Since the days I did work for the IHB, I’ve heard about the possibility of running them, but what if a car which is being put over a “hump” has accidently gone into a wrong track? They would have to send an engine in to recover it. If they do the same thing with a computer programmed system, how long would it take them to type the orders in to the engine? Where a train with a crew, can grab it immediately, without having to stop and type it in and wonder? Ralph Zimmer Alsip, Il.
There may be some hurdles that need to be overcome before we see un-manned trains running between stations. But I think that the technology already exists to overcome most of them it just needs to be perfected. For example as far as people walking in front of an unmanned train, Mercedes is advertising technology that will recognize if a person steps in front of your car and stop the car before you could even react. That kind of technology would work well on a train without an engineer. As far as people riding trains without an engineer, once developed I don’t think they would soon think anything of it. There a lot of mass transit systems that run without drivers with trains spaced only minutes apart. The Skytrain in Vancouver, BC is an example, thousands of people board every hour without even thinking about it and yet no drivers exist onboard. Trains often operate within eye sight of each other. There are companies trying to create technology so that cars can drive themselves from point A to point B while the driver takes a nap. While that technology is years away from perfection the concept is out there. If that kind of technology could be developed then I don’t think it would be a problem to develop technology to drive trains which operate on a fixed set of track regardless of the length or terrain it travels through.
Remember back about fifteen or twenty years ago…who would have thought we’d all be able to run a computer, or pay for water, or even consider computers flying airplanes or driving trains. Given the (hopefully) time and resources, it’s gonna happen.
HERE IN SPRINGFIELD MO. BNSF HAS SEVERAL SWITCHERS WITH RC IN THEM. I WAS STUNNED TO SEE THIS. JUST ONE MAN WAS DOING EVERYTHING. NOT THREE OR FOUR. I BET HE WAS LONELY AND BORED.
at January 24 we had here in Limburg, a celebration. We named one of this ICE3 trains that run at the highspeed line between Frankfurt and Cologne “LIMBURG AN DER LAHN”.
After all we had an little imbiss for the guests. I, working in city marketing, was sitting together with the chief of the DBAG depot in Frankfurt-Griesheim, the home of the ICE3 fleet.
We had a discussion about “NO MAN TRAINS”.
He agree with me: No man trains are absolute possible today !!!
Why they do this not ? One side are the psychological problems - nobody will drive in a 300 km/h train without the man (or woman) in the cockpit (sorry the ICE3 have a cockpit and not a cab) !
But the main reason is that the engineer can run the train also when the RC will have a misfunction or when there are other problems !!!