When I was running my MTH HO Scale SD70M-2 an older man at my local model railroad club (JVMRRA) told me that Norfolk Southern always ran long hood forward. I know he’s wrong since I’ve lived in three places on Norfolk Southern and he’s just from South Dakota. I just wondered how often they do run long hood forward since most of their locomotives have front and rear ditch lights.
NS predessors(N&W/Southern) both ordered engines with ‘high’ short hoods, and N&W has their engines equipped with ‘dual’ control stands. N&W eventually started ordering the more common ‘short’ from hood style engines.
NS new engines(like the SD70M-2) appear to have ditch lights on both ends of the engine, but do not have ‘dual’ control stands. The ‘front’ of the engine is designated by the ‘F’ on the frame(by the steps). Having ditch lights on both ends of the engine allows NS to run them ‘long hood forward’ at more than 20 mph over public grade crossings(government regulation).
From my observations, other railroads like BNSF put ditch lights on both ends of switchers and 4 axle road switchers. Larger 6 axle road units only have ditch lights on the front .
Jim
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I seen NS Wye wide cabs at Bellevue so the cab would be on the front and often as I railfaned NS I’m yet to see long hood lead on the SD70M-2s.
I seen NS D9s long hood lead when assigned to the Marion local and that was only on their return trip to the yard.
Your old-timer’s information is 20 or 30 years old. The older N&W and NS SD40s et. al. with high hoods usually (but maybe not ALWAYS) ran long hood forward. The long hood may have been designated the front.
The newer engines with standard short hoods or wide-nose cabs would normally run short hood forward. The short hood/nose is the front.
As Jim mentioned, I think the older gent is thinking of the two railroads that merged to create Norfolk Southern, the Norfolk & Western and the Southern. A number of railroads bought 1st generation road switchers set up to run long-hood forward, like Great Northern, New York Central and others. The argument often made was that the long hood provided more protection for the crew in case of a collision.
When engines with low short hoods became available around 1960 most railroads switched and bought new engines with the low short hood as the front. N&W and Southern didn’t, they kept running long hood forward and ordered new engines with a high short hood. I’m sure right after the NS merger there were still many engines on the roster with high short hoods that were set up to run long hood forward, but I don’t know how many (if any?) are still in use. All the “modern” NS diesels I see on coal train run-throughs here in Mpls/St.Paul have low short hoods and appear to be running with the short hood as the front.
Marion, Ohio (September 2000)
Kevin
Southern ran their locomotives long end forward as a safety measure for the train crew. The long end was designated as the forward end of the unit.
Not long before the merger, one of the two (can’t remember if it was N&W or Southern) bought some diesels with a low short hood, but that still were set up to operate long-hood forward. As I recall, the rationale was that the long hood first running made the crew safer, but having the low short hood gave the crew better visibility when looking back to keep an eye on their train.
I shot these photos in September 2010 at Schenley, PA.
The 5028 is an ex-Southern (CNO&TP) GP38-2, and is supposedly still in-service, according to this NS roster.
Wayne
Southern ordered high-nose engines to save money.
Union contracts at the time required the end with more glass area to be the leading end of the engine. With high hoods, both ways have the same glass area, negating the need to turn engines to get the end with the most glass area in the front . Just hook up the consist and go.
A little bit of money to buy high hoods saved a bunch of time and money turning engines, maintaining the extra glass area, and so forth.
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Kevin,I think today that would be more of a exception then anything.Nice photo.
I have more photos of the wide cabs running cab forward and HH running short hood forward then I do long hood forward.
I live within view of the Sandusky line and I see around 80% of the trains ran between dawn to dusk.[:P] It’s nice to sit under a shade tree in the front yard and railfan.
Bucyrus around 2009/10.
Somehow that doesn’t seem plausible. On trains using one diesel road-switcher, either end could be used as the front. On a train with multiple engines, you’d normally have some engines facing one way and some the other, so it wouldn’t take much switching to have the end units facing forward (in effect, back to back to each other). I’ve never heard of Southern having a specific union agreement like that…not saying it’s impossible, just would be rather unusual??
BS!
The Southern units had only one control stand and that was set up for long hood forward. If there was any savings of money, it came from not ordering a second control stand.
One thing you guys seem to be missing is that “Turn Around Locals” operating with only one unit will eventually be operated with either end forward, depending on how they left the terminal. Yard jobs are the same way.
Through trains seen with a long hood forward have probably had some kind of engine failure along the road and the trailing units were all long hood forward leaving no other option than to run long hood forward to the final terminal.
If one cares to study photos of the N&W and Southern one would see both roads ran their locomotives in either direction.
As far as back to back operation it wasn’t unusual to see long hood forward on both ends of the locomotive consist.
As far as long hood forward I think that was more of a hold over from the steam era.
Ya, the only restriction as far as engines having to face forward for diesels I’m aware of involved “covered wagons” like F-units, E-units, PA’s etc., and that I believe was a federal ruling or regulation and not part of a labor agreement. (I believe these type engines were also restricted from doing switching or road switching (set-outs and pick-ups) also.
Actually there was no restrictions on a cab unit doing switching but,the crew was limited on the number of enroute pickup/setouts per company/union work agreements unless the train was a local or a interdivision transfer train-these interdivision transfers setout/picked up cars at smaller yards.
On my railroad, long hood forward is the standard.
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What era do you model, and what engines do you use?
Brakie’s response was right and wrong at the same time. Yes there were restrictions, but they could be, and were, violated with provisions for handling the violation.
Through freight road crews could pickup and/or setout at three (in earlier eras, four) intermediate stations without penalty. Also some events, like setting out a defective car or working perishable or livestock could be exempt.
If a crew exceeded the three (or four) work event restriction, they were then to receive the higher local pay rate for the entire trip. It’s like a lot of railroad work rule agreements. Crews can do certain things for the normal rate of pay. Exceed the agreed to limits and some kind of penalty or arbitrary payment will be made.
Jeff
WSOR wrote:
“Union contracts at the time required the end with more glass area to be the leading end of the engine. With high hoods, both ways have the same glass area, negating the need to turn engines to get the end with the most glass area in the front.”
Management on Southern and N&W was… well… pigheaded.
“You’ll run the engine long-hood forward, because that’s what we’re telling you to do. Visibility doesn’t matter.”
The early hood unit diesels came set up for long hood forward because… that’s the way a steam engine was built – with “the works” out in front of you… so that’s the way a diesel was supposed to be, as well.
The management had it their way for years, but time marches on.
Now, they buy (and run) the road freight engines set up as all the other roads do.
Years ago at Campbell Hall, I remember having a PC-ordered GP38 that was “against the grain”. It had a low short hood (like any other GP38), but the control stand was set up long hood forward. I’m going to GUESS that whoever ordered these (there were only a few, I never saw another after that one) felt that it would be fine for short hood operation, and ok for long hood operation. A strange unit (ran like any other GP38).