I have just installed a Tsunami AT-1000 in a Bachmann Spectrum Fairbanks Morse H16-44. This is my first Tsunami decoder. The decoder sounds good to me (I am absolutely not an expert on proper engine sounds) but the engine control is not acceptable. I am using an NCE Power Cab set on 128 speed steps.
My problem is that the locomotive is too quick off the start. After playing with the CV settings for quite some time the locomotive still starts moving too soon before the engine RPMs match the speed. To be exact, when I hit speed step 1 the engine rpms barely start to increase before the locomotive moves forward, and the forward movement is too fast. I have set the momentum to 9 and I have set CV 25 to 15 which supposedly lowers the start up voltage to the minimum.
I have read and reread all of the on line manuals. One of the things I can’t seem to find is how to directly adjust start up voltage. I believe that what I need to do to correct the problem is simply reduce the start up voltage to the motor, but nowhere can I find a reference to the CVs which control that basic function.
FYI, I know that the decoder is receiving whatever commands I input because the loco jumps when I hit enter after setting the CV details.
So, I enlist your expertise!
By the way, I am not new to decoder installations. I have done about a dozen or more using various brands and I have been able to adjust the CVs in every one to suit my needs.
With Tsunami decoders,CV2 controls the start voltage.However,using the speed table should do it too.Did you activate the speed table by setting CV29 bit 4 first.That might be your problem,the speed curve is useless unless you set CV29 first.
Now you see why the one Tsunami I have in a Bowser/Stewart FT is the only one I will ever buy.
Realistic sounds mean nothing if the operation is unrealistic.These are some top-notch smooth running locos, dead quiet and can easily creep tie to tie, so it’s not the motor or the mechanism. It will run slow with the Tsunami, that’s not a problem. But the moving before the motor revs is just plain wrong. On QSI and Loksound this is easy to fix, just add momentum. Turn the throttle slowly, the loco moves off with little prime mover revving, like a light engine move. Open the throttle faster, the prime mover revs and the loco moves off slowly, like it has a heavy train. Manual nothing on Tsunami can do this, but that seems to be a crutch. Speed matching Tsunami is much harder than it needs to be, also, since they do not support CV6 mid speed, so you are almost foreced to use a speed table.
That’s why I standardized on ESU. Great sounds AND great motor control. I’ve said it before - if you remember the development story of Tsunami, when announced they were better than anything else on the market. However, they were delayed a considerable time from the announcement until release - in the time period the other manufacturers went through sometimes multiple revision upgrades, continually improving. The Tsunami has been left behind.
Tsunami decoders have superior operating ability IF you can set all the CVs correctly. You almost have to have Decoder Pro to get everything right. My Tsunami equipped Atlas RS-11 runs great, as does my Spectrum 2-10-0. Keep in mind the Bachmann H-16-66 is not as good an engine as an Atlas or Kato one, so isn’t going to run as well as a more expensive engine regardless of the decoder.
If CV2 is zero, increasing it will only make the engine start quicker, not slower. Keep in mind your mid and top speed CVs (5 and 6) will affect how quickly the engine starts, as it affect the “straight line” speed curve. Try putting CV 5 at 100 and CV 6 at 50, with CV2 at zero and see how that works. If you need to delay the start more, increase CV 3 up to 20 or 30.
p.s. CV 25 controls which speed curve you use. I would set it back to a straight line curve, it may be the curve you’re using does the opposite of what you want - deliver a lot of power right away. You also have to set CV 29 (IIRC) to allow using speed curves.
Jeff Otto (cover story, Model Railroad Planning 2013) wrote an article on programming the “Tsuper Tsunami” in the NMRA Twin Cities Division newsletter a few years ago that I found VERY helpful…
There are many CVs that address your issue. BTW, sometimes locos can creep forward while idling. Anyway, JMRI Decoder Pro makes what you’re trying to do a whole lot easier. I have even forgotten some of the CVs since that’s how I tune the loco and sounds these days. Get the correct decoder definition for your Tsunami which I believe is standard in the current version. The current default for new Tsunamis are to go to notch 1(off idle) when when speed step 1 activated. That used to not be the case and some have not tried the newer decoders so are unaware of this change.
Maybe I’m just lucky or maybe it’s because all mine are steam Tsunami’s, but I’ve never had any big issues with motor control. Interestingly, while there isn’t a CV 6 in the documentation, setting CV 6 is taken and acknowledged on the programming track. It does seem to have an effect, but since I stick to to a variety of mid-volt settings near the mid-range, maybe my eyes are fooling me about what effect it’s having?[*-)]
BTW, TCS is bringing a sound decoder to market in the very near future that is between the Tsu and the Micro-Tsu in size, so there will be more competition heating up in this area of the DCC market. Several have mentioned the long in tooth status of the Tsunami and there is speculation that the timing is right for Soundtraxx to announce a next gen Tsunami, although I’ve heard nothing concrete on that.
Try working with CV’s 209 and 210, defaults are set at 25 and 20, set them lower. You have to have CV3 and 4 to set to zero before you set the CV 209 and 210.
I will post link to that here that has all kinds of infomation on the Tsunami’s.
I can no longer recall where I found this three years ago, but I used it on my BLI DC-version J Class 4-8-4 in which a friend installed a heavy steam Tsunami. It is long and involved, but so are decoders in general, and their manuals even more. However, I wanted something better from that J, and I got it. If you want to see the magic resident in every Tsunami, go through this, ponder it, and then start fiddling with values. My formerly jerky J now moves off like a real locomotive.
Try it…it works!
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Tsunami PID/BEMF CV Tuning Concepts
I spent quite some time on the phone with Soundtraxx today. The following is a write up of what I was told. It includes knowledge I have gained recently in researching the PID process in general and the Tsunami decoders in particular. A PID controller is a well-known method of doing “process control”. In our case the “process” is the speed of our Tsunami equipped locomotives. And the task we are working towards is producing a process/procedure that will allow the user to find/discover the best/correct settings for their particular locomotive that will give them the performance they want.
It is also important to understand that the values for a particular locomotive – make and model and scale – may not work for other locomotive … and may not even work for a ‘sister’ locomotive (one that was produced in the same run of the same make and model). And when we are talking about this kind of thing there is an assumption that the decoders are also the same make and model. Yes, certainly if you have two sister locos and you have one of them running the way you like it then you should try the same settings (CVs) for this new one … and at least use them as a starting point. But don’t be surprised if you find you have
Did anyone else think to notice what loco he has installed this in? Bachmann H-liner? The loco is as much to blame as the decoder. 3 poles, terrible pickup scheme, motor not isolated from the frame. How we are so quick to jump on the Tsunamii. David B
Yeah but it works no better in my Stewart FT which DOES have a top quality motor and drive line. Everyone is quick to throw 3 pole motors to the wolves but every RIvarossi loco I ever came across ran nicely at slow speeds on plain DC.
Give the “process” that Crandell posted a try. Rather long and a little involved (you think that’s bad, try reading a QSI manual!) you’ll find improved results.
Like I said, my Tsunamis are all in narrowgauge steam. I’ve been using a group of settings that a fellow on one of my email lists developed specifically for the Blackstone C-19. They mostly run “like butter” although some minor fiddling is needed for best results, as noted above, including applying them to the BS K-27 and several brass Tsunami installs.
If you haven’t given it a try, you’re ignoring considerably improved response. Here’s another brief example of the relevant CVs [although you will likely have to adjust for best results]:
<CVvalue name="209" value="25" />
<CVvalue name="210" value="20" />
<CVvalue name="212" value="100" /> <-- with BEMF on
<CVvalue name="217" value="2" /> <-- this value turns BEMF on
Thanks to everyone who has answered. I will try your suggestions tonight and let you know what results I get.
Just so you are aware, I have been able to make some progress by setting CV 25 to 15 which is the largest exponential speed curve preprogrammed into the decoder. With that setting I am getting some increase in the engine rpm before the locomotive moves but only if I just go to speed step 1 first. Any other throttle setting makes the engine move before the sound catches up. However, I am also sceptical that the decoder has actually accepted the exponential curve (yes - CV 29 bit 4 is set to 1) because the graph of the curve would suggest way more change in the engine’s response then I am getting.
Before I go to the test track let me answer a few of your points:
Jacktal - CV 29 is set to allow for speed curves so that basic issue has been addressed. I just have to remember to change it if I have to reset the decoder because I messed up.
Wjstix - thanks for the link to the article.
Crandall - I actually think I understand everything that was in the tuning article - suprised myself[Y]
David B - I recognize that the engine is not high end. However, it ran very smoothly on DC and it runs smoothly on DCC. The problem is that the decoder is applying too much power at start up. Dumpy motor or not, I should be able to dial down the decoder until nothing happens at speed step 1 (of 128) until the sound of the engine reving matches the movement. In fact, I should be able to dial the decoder down until there is no movement at all on speed step 1 - am I correct on that?
Mike - Thanks for the short version of Crandell’s solution.
Richard - I have heard of JMRI’s Decoder Pro many times but I have not researched it yet so I will do that in the next couple of days.
Now then - lets go see how badly I can mess up the CVs[}:)][swg][(-D]
I think I have solved the original problem at least for now by changing CV 212 to 100. (Tom - thanks for the suggestion). The motor revs properly (at least in my uneducated opinion) before the locomotive starts to move and the relation between speed and engine noise seems appropriate.
However, now the engine seems to hesitate sporadically which it was not doing before. I think this calls for a disassembly of the gear towers to see if something has been picked up or if one of the many wires I installed for all the LEDs is interfering with moving parts before I go any further with programming.
Fun, fun, fun! Yes I am having fun but this one is proving to be a bit frustrating.
I do have another question if you don’t mind. This is a bit long winded: On another thread in the prototype section I asked about the classification lights which Bachmann kindly provided clear lenses for in the H16-44. Thanks to your answers I now know that they would be different colours, or white, or off depending on the status of the train. Being obsessed with the opportunity to install LEDs I want to set the locomotive up with the option of showing either green or red or ‘off’ colours on the classification lights. That is simple enough using bi-colour three lead LEDs and functions 5 and 6. The problem is that the decoder only has two extra lighting functions beyond the head light and rear light controls. I need to find power for the numberboards. The best compromise I can come up with is to wire the number boards together with the headlight and rear light and then connect the negative leads for the headlight and rear light together so they will stay on regardless of the direction of the locomotive. Is this going to cause a problem? (I can live with the head and rear lights being on all the time).
I don’t know if your locomotive has them, but Bachmann puts in two chokes and a capacitor on the motor boards. These cause problems when converting to DCC. The Cap should be cut out as it is across the motor leads. The Chokes should be removed and a shorting wire installed where they were. These components have caused me problems on Bachmann locomotives when converted to DCC in the past.
I had removed the entire original board when I started the install because there wasn’t room for it and the Tsunami. I have removed the original board and hard wired all of my decoders so far. Only two of my engines have come with the factory installed pin sockets (P2Ks) and in both cases the original owners had monkeyed with the stock boards so I pitched them to be safe.
I should also mention in regard to one of David B’s points that I have removed the original pick up contacts that touched the frame and wired the trucks directly to the decoder so the motor is properly isolated.
The Tsunami has a great BEMF control system, but, like all finely tuned items, it needs to be compatible with your loco. Here’s how you get them happy with each other.
Turn Off any speed tables with CV29
Set CV2 to 0
Shut off momentum
(CV3 = 0; CV4 = 0)
Go to Programming on the Main (OPs mode for Digitrax), preferably using DecoderPro
Set CV 209 to 0
Set CV210 to 0
Set the loco moving forward on speed step 1
(128 step mode recommended)
Adjust Kp (CV209) until the loco just moves, very slowly - may be jerky
Adjust Ki (CV210) until the loco smoothes out
If you want EXTREME low speed control, you can adjust from the above settings. Bruce suggests that you reduce CV210 by 1 and then adjust CV209 up until you get movement.
To view a Windows video of what can be accomplished this way, CLICK HERE or, you can view the HD version on You Tube, just CLICK HERE!
Yes, this loco is moving on speed step 1 in 128 step mode.
Once you have done the above, you can adjust the steam chuff rate to match the wheel rotation (assuming you aren’t using a
Thanks for sharing the process. Several sources have referred to CVs 209 and 210 as being the key to proper speed control so I will follow that route when I get the locomotive back together.
In the mean time, just to fill everyone in on the current state of this decoder installation, I took the locomotive completely apart including the trucks. There was some debris in the gears but nothing that looked big enough to interfere with their operation. (I am talking really fine particals here). I cleaned the truck parts with 99% isopropal alcohol. I then checked the gears for flash and found almost nothing so I put them back together.
Unfortunately one truck still refused to run smoothly, and in fact it developed a noticeable clunk the more I ran it. Nothing showed up under magnification when I had the truck apart so I have decided to order a new truck from Bachmann to see if it does any better.
Until I get the new truck we will have to wait to see if the Tsunami can be tamed!