Note to Manufacturers - More Information Needed for Pre-Orders

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I must confess to being a little bit frustrated.

When a manufacturer, in this case BLI, sends out a information regarding a new product they plan to deliver, it is normally customary to have photos or at least some good quality illustration of the item they intend to produce.

I find a single old black and white image of only the B&O version to be totally, completely unacceptable if the manufacturer thinks that image will actually get me to place a pre-order.

To add further insult to injury, the ads in today’s emails (the pre-order deadline for the USRA light pacific is today) clearly state “built to order” thus implying no extra production for stock (at any level of the supply chain whatsoever).

Sorry, but based upon the crummy information–or utter lack thereof–provided, I am unable to place a pre-order.

In this case Broadway Limited failed to provide some of the most basic information necessary to make an informed decision. There is no sketch illustrating the paint scheme to be applied, when even during the steam era there were considerable variations for some New England roads. Some of the railroads in question applied very bold paint and lettering schemes to some of the engines, and I would want the bold lettering and not some plain jane little box with the railroad logo in it.

I’m not losing out here–I can and will find plenty of other products to buy. BLI is losing here–by failing to provide more than the most minimal information, they are hurting their own sales (in the form of pre-orders) that might have been placed had myself and other prospective buyers been provided with more detailed information.

As it is I’ll just find other things to buy. I might have loved a USRA Pacific, but not if I don’t know what paint scheme I’m getting.

John

2

Going to a slightly different manufacturer, these are comments I posted recently on the Atlas Rescue Forum regarding the upcoming release of Walthers SW1’s:

"Sure is interesting how Walthers expects us to order without showing us what we’re getting. All I see is artwork. What’s the model actually look like, guys.

And then there’s the latest all-door boxcars–full of improvements. But we’ll just show you shots of the old ones:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-101901

And then these new well cars:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/910-4904

where they show a prototype photo of the wrong car.

And I’m supposed to order based on THAT kind of information?

Ed"
3

How did BLI respond when you emailed them your comments and concerns?

4

Regarding Walthers, I have, for the past several years, just received the boilerplate “thanks for writing–we’ll consider your suggestions” without ever getting an actual response. So, I’ve stopped bothering.

Ed

5

Ed:"Sure is interesting how Walthers expects us to order without showing us what we’re getting. All I see is artwork. What’s the model actually look like, guys.

That seems to be a standard procedure since every manufacturer uses the same method…

None the less I going to order one since I been wanting a SW1 for quite some time.

6

Hello Simon1966–

As BLI sent an email just today reminding me that today is the last day to place a Pre-Order for this item, I did not contact them, because it is too late. They do not have time to make any changes to the announcement.

Perhaps when my local train store handed me a catalogue a couple weeks ago that included some, if not all, recent BLI announcements, I should have contacted BLI at that time. Perhaps that is my mistake. However, the likelihood of their being able to change the announcement during the limited pre-order timeframe (about a month or so) would not be very high–since catalogs, etc. had already been provided to dealers.

I’m also frustrated by the language in the email explicitly stating “built to order”. That seems to be new. Frankly, that kind of statement makes me not want to pre-order. I don’t appreciate the perceived pressure implying that if I don’t order today there won’t be one available.

Also, when I have emailed BLI in the past regarding product related concerns, the response time was not very fast. I doubt if they would have been able to change their announcements.

The point of my post was intended to be that manufacturers are most likely losing sales by sending out very vague advertisements with either a. poor quality old black and white images of just one version in one roadname or b. poor quality drawings.

For pete’s sake, we live in a day and age when fine quality color renderings are easily possible. The lame drawings many manufacturers have been using as of late to solicit pre-orders are simply unacceptable quality. It is likely costing them sales.

Finally, the elephant in the room is that if you want me to buy it, you should show me multiple color photos of pilot model(s). Otherwise, I’m not impresse

7

Athearn, for one, shows a lot of their stuff far before “order time”. Tangent and Exactrail have shown it AT “order time”. We also saw the Bachmann enormously affordable diesels BEFORE we had to order.

No, I think Walthers is way out ahead on this one.

Ed

8

I don’t wish to start a rant, but, I would never pay for anything before it get it if i don’t know for sure what i am getting and when i can expect to receive it.

Charlie

9

I’m not talking about paying the actual money before I get it.

However, my favorite train store (and my former employer) is not going to place any pre-order from me that I’m not 100% sure I’m going to pick up–because then they are stuck with it if I don’t want it, since my roadname tastes are usually not the local roadname of choice.

It’s a simple fact–if I order anything–they expect me to pick it up. Saying “I don’t like it so I don’t want it” is not an option, even as they are my long-time friends. The only way out of an item is if it would be legitimately defective–not useable or damaged.

Now, I could simply indicate my interest to MBK, let them order a bunch, and hope I get one when they send out the email notice…but if an item is hot that might not work for me, as they could sell out prematurely before I get to respond to their private email.

In this economy, when I don’t know if I’ll even have my current job in 6 months (my design job depends on DOT’s receiving funding, and that can change literally tomorrow) if I can’t see what I’m ordering, I cannot afford under any circumstances, to place a pre-order.

John

10

A little off-beat question: these pre- order locomotives, are they limited to the actual number of pre-orders and no more will be built, except the prescribed amount? This would seem to make them extremely rare in the future, or am I dreaming?

11

My only experiences with pre-ordering was/is with very small direct retail manufacturers (very, very few era-suitable items are made by the major manufacturers/importers these days). So far, I’ve met my commitment each time. I have the money set aside for the agreed-to price in savings before I pre-order. But when a major delay is announced (and they have been in every case where I have pre-ordered), I have been afforded the opportunity to cancel my reservation by the manufacturer.

The hobby shops in my area keep reservations (pre-orders) separate from orders for stock. Reservations are filled and shipped before any product goes on the shelf. Shelf stock consists of extra units ordered by the LHS, and reservations that are declined. I find it hard to believe that MBK does otherwise.

just my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

…modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it’s always 1900…

12

I agree to a point that Walthers,Atlas and other should show a model-Atlas showed drawings of their new passenger car which should be ex Branchline passenger car which seems to be a sop but,we both seen drawings and preproductions examples of a model ripped on the old Atlas forum…

At $99.00 I don’t expect to see vast improvements.

I’m just thankful they are releasing them again.

13

I am most familiar with Blackstone and PSC practices. I cannot say the information necessarily holds for other model locomotive importers. A practical run size is generally agreed to in advance by the importer and manufacturer. Both need pretty firm numbers for pricing and other critical planning.

In PSC’s case, the pre-orders must reach a reasonable percentage of the projected run for the project to go forward. For PSC, the pre-order minimum number also reaches down to the model version. Versions which are not sufficiently pre-ordered don’t get made. Blackstone appears to have already determined their production plans and numbers when dealers start taking orders.

For the more popular numbers/paint schemes/versions of a given model, the pre-order may represent the entire planned production of that particular number/version. So if you don’t pre-order early enough, you don’t necessarily get the version you want.

The better hobby shops will order additional units of versions they predict will be popular for shelf stock. So this is usually the second chance to get a particular version. However, the shelf stock tends to move pretty quickly - usually within days or a few weeks of the LHS receiving the order

The third chance is eBay. In the 6 months after delivery of a desirable version, the eBay prices will be at or most likely above full retail.

If too many of the less desirable versions are made, these will go for lower prices at shops and eBay for a year or two.

If a model is an undisputed success, it usually gets rerun within a couple of years.

14

I actually agree with you and my question was more out of interest. This email is just one of a series that have been sent over the last few weeks as the order deadline approached for these models. So, yes, the final notice was sent today, but there have been several more ahead of it announcing the product and the deadline. It is not as if this was your one and only chance to see it.

Your main point is entirely valid. Asking folks to essentially commit to purchase sight-unseen is a lot to ask, and rather foolish. I would have thought that BLI would care about this, but there are no guarantees that they see this thread, so you might as well express your valid concerns. I would be real interested if you get a response?

I have never pre-ordered anything myself and don’t plan on it.

I am not sure that the MRR companies actually care. As long as they can look at each run as a one-off stand-alone profitable enterprise they don’t have to worry about excess inventory and depending on the way they structure the deal they can possibly even get full payment from the market in time to pay the manufacturer in China. It is very clear from past fire sales that BLI in particular fell into the over production trap before.

So yes, they might lose a few sales, but they eliminate risk. Like it or hate it, this is sadly the reality of today’s locomotive production. I don’t believe that they consider it their loss if folks choose not to order. As long as they get the orders to meet the production run, I doubt they care where they come from.

15

Fred W–

MBK happens to be a wonderful shop to do business with, and they have done away with pre-orders entirely. This is clearly explained in better detail than I’m providing here on their website.

Now, a prospective buyer indicates their interest in a given item, and MBK orders the items (presumably enough). When the item comes in, they send you an email that it is in, before they ever put them out for stock. A buyer has a few business days in which to respond to their email.

I had sent an email that I was interested in a particular item, but I didn’t push too hard, and I had not personally heard back from them at all…when it came in, by the time all the other interested buyers bought the item in question, there were none–zero–available for stock. I was checking their website daily–they still have the B unit in stock, but no A units, and no one else has them either (I’ve looked). The A unit in question never appeared on their website.

So, it is theoretically possible to indicate one’s interest to them, and still miss out on getting a model…

I’m sure it’s most unlikely, and happens only rarely, but it seems that it did happen to me.

John

Simon–

Your points are noted. The BLI emails come to my work, and I was busy at work and ignored some of them…my fault for that. Yes, I probably should have contacted them and indicated my concern. I was somewhat interested in the 4-6-2, but not interested enough to take the time to contact them, so that is my fault.

16

Delighted to learn about the re-release of the Walthers SW1. [Y][:D] Disappointed that it’s only going to be offered in 4 roads. [:(][N] Although I see that Walthers is planning to use the Proto MAX™ metal knuckle couplers on these, there’s no mention whether they will be Proto 2000 models.

And it’ll be interesting to see how well the new versions run compared to their 20±year old siblings. My Walthers SW1 (with the Roco motor) just putters along so nicely at speed step 001. Best little switcher that I have. I am willing to bet that the new offering won’t be anywhere as heavy.

Tom

17

They are claiming (sort of) a metal frame, so it may be pretty close. It’s also DCC ready. And the description of the drive has all the right words. And it’s even affordable.

But being Walthers “Mainline”, it worries me that the detailing may be clunky. And/or cast on.

On t’uther hand, it could be an opening salvo against Bachmann’s recent release of some VERY nicely done affordable locos.

I’m sorta lucky that none of the first offerings are in a road of interest to me. So, I can wait and see what they look like. And I do have one of the old SW1’s (BN) that I’m also very fond of.

Ed

18

You know, it’s interesting, but it seems like a few years ago, we were hearing about how IT was going to revolutionize manufacturing to where everyone could get what they wanted, fully customized, using a Just In Time manufacturing system. Instead it seems everything has taken a step backward to not only are the choices limited to pre determined roadnames, but now you have to order years before the product is even built.

I guess I’m just not seeing how globalization has improved manufacturing from when things were made in USA in a production basis.

19

Good points, Ed. And, like yourself - since none of the initial offerings interest me - I’ll be equally awaiting to see how they look and perform; compared to the original SW1s that were released back in '91.

Even though the newer models will come with a metal frame, I don’t expect the weight comparison to be close at all. Maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

I have no evidence to say that it made any difference at all. However, I sent an e-mail to Walthers over a year ago asking them to consider re-releasing their SW1, since their original SW1s were still commanding MSRP ($80) or better on places like eBay. I expressed to Walthers that I thought their Proto 2000 line with the possibility of sound would really make it a good seller.

Maybe that will be down the line at some point. At least this version will be DCC-ready, as you already pointed out , Ed. And, hopefully - Walthers will also offer a undecorated version, as well.

Tom

20

jmbjmb,
Sigh. I suppose we can go back to the olden days, when Euro models outnumbered US ones in the Walthers catalog and in the ads of MR. When you didn’t even get to choose your own roadnames from the mail order houses. When all engine details were the same no matter the road. When Athearn only released a handful of new engines in a decade.

Of course, today, even tho’ it may take a while, you’ll probably get what you want. In the olden days, there was no chance of you getting what you want unless you wanted what was already being made.

Put it this way: In 1990, there was very few NH engines for sale in HO that were even close to being something the NH actually had. Atlas C-425’s, RS-11’s, RS-1’s, RS-3’s, MDC RS-3’s, Stewart RS-3’s, and U25B’s were just about it. Since those dark days of unlimited runs, NH fans have been able to fill their rosters with P2K GP9’s, PA-1’s, FA-1’s, FB-1’s, S-1’s, 0-8-0’s, P1K DL-109’s, RS-2’s, RS-11’s, Atlas HH660’s, S-1’s, RS-1’s, RS-3’s, H16-44’s, C-425’s, Bachmann H16-44’s, 44tonners, 4-8-2’s, Stewart U25B’s, BLI I-5 4-6-4’s, and True Line Trains CPA24-5’s. The only things missing in NH are HH600’s, S-2’s, LS1200’s, FB-2’s, RP210’s, SW1200’s, P12-42’s, and FL9’s. Of those, S-2’s, FB-2’s, and SW1200’s exist and can be painted in NH colors, the LS1200’s are in unpainted resin on a Stewart chassis, and FL9’s are incoming from River Point Station. Only the rare HH600’s and the unique RP210’s and P12-42’s are curently unattainable. That’s a far cry from the olden days when Athearn’s F7’s and SDP40’s and Walthers E-60F’s were considered okay for production (none of which the NH ever had). I mean, today I can go out and buy NH’s steel cabooses in plastic and they’ll actually be correct for NH. No one could do that 20 years ago. Heck, they couldn’t do that 10 years ago.

Paul A. Cutler III