balt, I was just talking about if they were guilty of it, I don’t know, just saying if that is what happened that is what I would do.
Brad
As to unions, I guess that I just don’t like them that much, I see things like in SF where they are stiking over not enough benifits, but if they didn’t have the union, they wouldn’t even have half of the salary let alone the benifits that they do have. Plus I always look when I hear a company is moving overseas, and more often than not it is a union job. I am in a job right now that is not union, and I am sure that I have better benifits than most of the union jobs out there, domestic partner, 401k, company match, awesome insurance, as well as a whole bunch of other benifits. My salary is pretty comparable to market wages, and I don’t have to pay to unions, so I don’t see the benifit to unions. I think that they were a good thing back 40 years ago and before, but for the most part now they have out used their usefullness. Just firgured I would reply why I don’t like unions, since you had asked.
Brad
Mr. goduckies,
How many years did it take for you to develope that steel trap mind of yours? I certainly hope that when your butt gets fired again that you don’t have to go crawling on your belly to someone exactly like you asking for a second chance.
Do you know the story about the fire chief that showed up then drove off leaving the engineer lying on the ground? How are you going to judge him? May God have mercy on your soul
goduckies, no insult intended by my questions. I’m very curious to see where you obtained your belief system.
- Did you ever take any classes in basic economics – supply/demand, etc.?
- Specifically, on what date exactly were you harmed by a union or union member?
- If someone asked you to define “democracy” in one sentence, what would you say?
OS
Your right, Brad…
You dont know enough about the inside of my industry to fairly judge us…but then, I dont know diddly squat about giving loans out, so we are even…
Now, that said…I am not defending these guys just because they are railroaders…nor am I a big union fan, I am UTU, but, like most members, am rather POed at our last president…guy is criminal, and got off pretty easy, as far as I am concerned…
I am defending the way disclipine is handled…until they are found guility by the NTSB…they should be held from service, allowed to collect their job insurance…and then once the NTSB ruling is made public, and it states they didnt line back, then, and only then do you have the right to gripe about what they did, or didnt do.
Your are judging them without all the facts…did you know they had hit the hours of service, meaning they had been on duty 12 hours…the newspapers had it wrong, they had not been on duty 13 hours…the last hour, hour 13, they had to sit on the locomotive, waiting for the cab to come pick them up.
Its rare for any newspaper to get the facts about railroads correct, most of the reporters dont have a clue about railroads or how they work…we cant work over 12 hours…Federal law forbids it, which is why the train was parked in the siding in the first place.
Now, myself, and just about every other railroader, has a pretty good idea what happened, and why.
If we were they guys passing out the disipline, and if they are found guility of failing to line the switch, then we would fire them for 180 days, maybe a year…but they would get their job back, because each and evrey one of us has goofed up on the same thing…we all have forgotten the line a switch.
Each and every time we do that simple task, there is a chance things can go wrong…its part of the job.
The wheels can pick the switch, or we can really do something stupid, like lining the switch under a moving car…but the
Everyone? That’s a bit of a generalization, isn’t it? I do not feel my comments (top of page 2) were off base. Please clarify.
I am going to jump in here briefly because I believe I may be the forum member Ed refered to (possibly wrong and egocentric of me) and; I far and wide respect every post I have seen him weigh in on. This thread has been very civil and stimulating, so I usually don’t get involved as my very mention seems to stir strong passionate feelings in others. Mr. Brad, I was invloved in an accident that caused 16 deaths and 178 injuries on Amtrak in 1987. I accept full responsibility for my actions. I cannot however take responsibility for the reactions and actions on anyone else. I do believe I know a little of how this NS crew feels whether they are culpable or not. We take our jobs and all that goes with it very seriously. The NS has probably held a “Kangaroo Court” trial for these gentleman and dismissed them to faciltate their insurance and legal agenda in reaction to the accident. The NTSB report will be the final word on the accident and, will not only access blame but will list every contributing factor leading to the accident and the possible failures after. These 3 crew members have alot of time and training involved in their occupations and it is a shame if they are not given the opportunity to learn and teach them on the job. Someone will fall but; it should be done justly and not a "knee jerk " reaction. I may also like to point out, that in your non-union job, your rate and benefits are a result of the unions setting the market. Conditions when unions began were atrocious and hard fought. Safety and better working conditions are always the union main mission. They have helped to pass laws, and fair practices that you benefit from. If there were no longer any unions, the need would once again increase. Industry is motivated by the bottom line and your salary, benefits and safety would begin to disenigrate rather quickly. You may not even be aware that you are not entitled (in most states) to a lunch break as long as you are paid to work. We do take things for granted and cannot al
Sorry to weigh in without reading all of the posts–I have been very busy as of late.
I don’t know how I feel about this. Part of me really sympathizes with the train crew. We all make mistakes. But, in the same breath, unless we are a CEO (oops, sorry for the tangent) we all are usually held accountable for our mistakes. If NS doesn’t fire the crew, and one the crewmembers makes another mistake that costs someone their life–well it wouldn’t play well in front of a jury.
I wish I could weigh in with something more concrete, I just see sympathy on both sides.
Gabe
Thank your for your honesty. I guess what drives me nuts, and this really isn’t your industry, (I really respect what you guys do), and what really colors me wrong about unions would be the teachers union, so maybe I should just realize that all unions are not like them. Also, I would support a federal law that makes it that if you work a 12, you should be required to get 12 off before you come to work again. I would push it through legislation rather than unions, but that is just me.
Brad
This is not to make light of the situation, but there is a saying that floats around the railroad industry to the effect, “Your not a real NS employee until you have been fired once.”
The rail disciplinary system is not much removed from the US legal system as it is an adversary system, the difference is that the ‘Judge’ is much more closely associated with the Prosecution in the railroads. In each system the various parites have their own adjendas that may or may not be inclined to determine the truth and reality of the situation that is under investigation.
Those of us that have never participated in either system can only wonder what the adjendas are.
goduckies,
Some have mentioned that you are a loan officer. If that is true then I can see why you see no need for unions. You probably spend most of your workday in the office. Not that there is anything wrong with that, especially when it’s 10 degrees outside. However, that type of job is vastly different from railroading, police work, and other dangerous professions. How often does your workgroup have safety meetings? Safety meetings are pretty common in the more dangerous professions. The problem comes in when some managers get hung up on liability and try to blame every little incident on the worker. Blame the worker=trying to shift blame off the company. A friend of mine works for one of the big telecommunitcation companies. He was in his work van sitting at a stop light in the left turn lane. A woman turning off the side street cut the turn too sharp and hit the front of his van. The company blamed my friend (their employee), and sent him home for a week without pay. They said that if he had driven slower, he wouldn’t have been sitting at the red light, therefore the accident would not have happened. [:0] Do you think this is fair? The union didn’t. They appealed the company’s decision and won. If the union wasn’t there, then this guy would have been out a weeks pay, because he was sitting at a stop light. Large corporations like the phone companies, railroads, etc., get really stupid with some of the decisions and policies. After my friend’s accident, the phone company came out with a policy that said left turn’s were dangerous and should not be made by company employees. They were supposed to down an extra block and make three right turns instead of making a left turn. It might sound good if you were in a city with blocks, but what do you do when you’re in the middle of nowhere and the only turn you can make is left? The union help shoot down this policy too. I admit that union’s do have their downside, but they are necessary in some instances.
Derrick
yep you are right there is at least 1 other i forgot to mention or overlooked ( i was in a hurry and did not take the time to do it right) and i will give myself 15 days on paper if i do it again i will take all 30 days. As a NS employee i have been fired 2 times so far. ) I wont even get into the union side of this I know somewhat more as a insider and other ns employees should know also. that whole mess pissed many people off. I can not talk about some issue of this . some thing are not what they seem to be. all i can say for sure is the real hero has not even stepped forward and taken HER bow… god bless HER…
How true!
And, like most of those angels…she most likely will not say a thing…
Ed
Well, I don’t claim to know any inside stories about the unfortunate wreck at Graniteville and I have refrained from chiming in because I am also an NS employee and have been since the company came into existence, and the N&W before that. I’ve never been fired and most of my co-workers have never been fired, either. I’ve heard that saying many times said about all railroaders, not just NS rails. And, I daresay (although I’m guessing) that Wabash 1 is talking about serving actual suspended time rather than being fired, something I know is part of the holdover Southern lingo. But I could be wrong.
As for Graniteville, that’s a terribly unfortunate thing and I know that crew must be in complete doldrums, day in and day out. That punishment would be terrible and getting fired would only be a small portion of the pain that they must be feeling. I can’t express it any more strongly than that.
It would be fun to follow Brad around all day and see what rules he violates, wouldn’t it?
valley x
Yes you are right time served (suspension) as most would call it. the old southern guys called it fired as we was not working. this timed served was due to rule violations(who me… imagine that) and totaling 19 days . it seems the only way to get a day off is to break a rule . and get caught.
The paradox is there are some commodites that railroads handle, such a chlorine, LPG, anhydrous ammonia, etc., that must move with zero failures but the system can only apporach zero failures while not getting too zero failures. That is when tragic thins happen to everyone involved.
True, Bob, very true.
Zero failures is the goal…not the reality.
But, what is almost always left out of the equation?
The fact that almost all of the railroad track is outside of any populated area…the amount of track that runs through any town or city is very small.
The majority of it is out in the boonies…and that is where the majority of derailments that rupture cars happens, because out there, they are running at speed, inside city limits, they are going a lot slower, hence less damage.
Tank cars are tough, very tough.
What you see on the outside is nothing more than sheathing over insulation, the real tank inside that is very thick steel.
It takes a heck of a impact to rupture one.
They have fallen off of bridges, been broadsided by 18 wheelers, other trains, and still hold up.
You know why you read about the accidents that happen in town?
Because the “news people”, and I use that term loosely, never report on the ones that happen in the middle of the Texas desert, because no one cares if it falls over out there, except,of course, the railroad.
But inside town, let a tank car full of corn sweatener derail in town, and the local TV news will have it’s SkyEye in full swing, with a terrified sounding reporter telling all the listeners that “A tank car has derailed, we dont know the contents of this car, but authorities are on the way to the scene, Blah, blah bla…” as if somehow this is as dangerous as a nuclear bomb, even when it says Cargil Corn Sweatener in six foot high letters on the side of the car…
Ed
I understand that mistakes have happened, hell I have done them my self in my line of work. I guess I just thought that it would be simple to make sure that the switch was lined correctly when I was one with it. With something so deadly, you would think that they would do whatever it takes to make sure that it was safe.
Brad
I feel sorry for the entire crew,but I feel sorriest for the engineer,as he was not involved in the rules infraction.The time served "on the ground"should depend on how each crewman was involved.I dont think any of them should be fired permanently,as no one is 100% perfect 100% of the time.We have all made mistakes on the job,and I’m sure that more than one of us(me included) has been fired.Unfortunately for the crew,this happened on NS,which is notoriously heavy handed with dicipline.
As for unions,They were definately useful at one time.Many work rules, and safety appliances on the railroad,and in other industries,are there because of unions.Today, while still needed, I think in some cases, the unions have too much power.This is part of the reason much of our industry has gone overseas.
We are not going to know much about this untill the NTSB report comes out. Does anyone have an estimate when we should see the report? In the meantime everyone has a life full of lawyers which has little to do with anything called justice.