I understand that NS had a penchant for running it’s locomotives with the long hood forward and that they preferred, at one time, to have a high short hood. And I also understand that their equipment came with dual control stands…all of which has been discussed in previous postings. But, while I was out railfanning the past couple of weeks, I observed something that has me somewhat puzzled.
About two weeks ago, I was in New Haven, IN just east of Ft. Wayne watching the trains around the local yard. A train led by a SD40-2 came up the lead track and stopped to await the correct signals to proceed west to Chicago. The locomotive was running short, low hood forward and it apparently must of had two control stands, as I could see the crew member on the left using one. From what I could see, it seems as though the engineer was sitting on the left side. As the train began to move, I saw him reach up to activate the whistle. This past week I was in Muncie, IN when a NS SD60 came by and, again, it had a low short hood forward with a left side control stand and the left side crew member seemed to be in control of the train.
My question is; if the locomotive has two control stands and is running short hood forward, wouldn’t the engineer be on the right side of the cab? It is entirely possible that I may have misinterpreted something about what the left-side crew member was doing or the way NS has it’s locomotives set up.
I don’t think any NS engines have dual controls. Instead, they were set up with the control stand for long hood forward operations. (hence the engineer is on the wrong side). I know that is the case with the SD60s, some SD40-2s, B32-8s, GP38s, etc.
Gregory–only a small percentage of Norfolk Southern’s engines were ordered
with dual control stands. But throughout the first several decades of the
diesel era, their philosophy was that the crew was safer running long hood
forward, so they ordered their engines so that the control stand was on the
right side if the long hood was forward. The company euphemistically called
these engines “bi-directional.” Also, during this time, high short hoods were
ordered for the simple reason that they were cheaper.
But as we got into the 1990’s, various studies proved to the NS executives
that crews were not protected better in the event of a crash by running
long hood forward, that in fact, the opposite might be true. Since crews
always hated the poor visibility associated with long hood forward running
anyway, NS changed their philosophy 180 degrees on this issue. They
stopped ordering high short hoods, and they started ordering control
stands oriented for short hood running like most of the other railroads.
Once this change in philosophy took place, it was usually deemed more
important to have good overall visibility for the crew than to have the
engineer on the right side–so all those engines that were (are) still on
the roster that were built “the old way” were turned around, causing
the engineer to sit on the left hand side.
There were 11 SD40-2s built in 1973 that had dual control stands,
but he vast majority of them were built between 1975 and 1978
and were arranged for long hood forward running with single controls.
18 of them built in 1980 which had a single control stand set up for
short hood forward running. Most of the dual control stand orders
were GP38s and GP40s and SD40s built between the early '60s
and 1971. They never came close to making up a majority of the
roster.
One time when I was in the EMD plant at LaGrange (when it was still fascinating to go in there), I was in the cab of an N&W locomotive built with a low short hood and controls on the “wrong” side. I wish I could remember the year–it had to have been one of the later open-house events.
Gregory, if you see this again, make a note of which end of the unit is the front end. It will have an “F” on the “frame” at the front end (it isn’t really the frame, but nearly everyone calls it that).
Gregory,
You are getting confused here. It was the Norfolk & Western that had the high short hood and dual control stands. The Southern had high hoods and sigle control stands. The N&W merged with the Sou. to form NS. The move was already taking place to short hoods and single control stands. The kicker here is that they put the control stand on what is normally the right hand side for long hood lead or the “wrong side” for short hood lead. Here’s what happened…
As both EMD and GE units were coming with the control stand on the “wrong side”, long hood lead, there developed a problem. The problem was in the way the four stroke GE diesels operated. When operating long hood forward, the GE units diesel engine would smoke much like an old ALCO. The cab would fill up with diesel fumes and make the crews sick. This wasn’t so much of a problem when operating in the 8th notch as the exhaust was getting expelled way up into the air. The problem was at low throttle notches, when the exhaust wasn’t getting thrown so high up, it would just kind of curl down the body and right into the cab window or whatever opening it could find.
EMD’s didn’t have this problem. The two stroke engine had enough exhaust speed to get up in the air. So anyway the GE exhaust when running long hood forward was making people sick, so the unions stepped in and came out with a short hood forwar
Thank you for the excellent responses! I have certainly learned something from you all. Now, if I get to see this situation again, I will know what is happening.
The visibility issue when running long hood forward is something I’ve often thought about. Although the conductor would be able to see the side opposite the engineer, it seems that if something happened, say a truck pulling up onto a crossing, the engineers response time would be much slower and he would not be able to tell exactly what is about to happen. For instance, should he bail the air and wait or make a run for the door. Big Jim, I’m glad you made it through your crash and you’re still here with us.
I work for NS as a conductor I have never seen a dual control unit but I have heard they are out there I have seen many of the long nose forward models especially in the yard I was told by some old heads that the reason why NS likes the long nose forward is for several reasons one is nastalgia as the steam engines used to have the long nose forward the other was for safety and prior to NS buying Conrail most of the tracks they operated on was single track so visablity wasn’t a high priorty
Consider this: if the locomotive is running “backwards”, the engineer would have less difficulty seeing the signals if the short hood (high or low) is the rear.
There was a major accident a few years ago between Detroit and Ft Wayne. I read the STB report and one of the major factors was the lack of vision with long hood forward. Also, there were other factors…a student engineer operating the train and one or both crew members were asleep.
Those reports make for interesting (and very detailed) reading.
There also was the event in Bulter, In where a student engineer was running westbound (compass southwest) on a Triple Crown train around 4am. There is a slight curve on the ex Wabash line north of the diamond which made it difficult for the student engineer to see the home signal at the ex NYC waterlevel route and the conductor and other engineer were otherwise occupied. The Triple Crown train hit the side of a Conrail stack train going across the diamonds. IIRC long hood forward was listed as a contributing factor in the accident investigation. Even if it wasn’t cited, running long hood forward soon fell out of favor.
edit: Ed and I were thinking alike, he just typed faster than I did.
Running backwards means that the engineer is running from the left side, a miserable experience. It’s very hard to see around those radiators that stick out on those wide body locomotives, visibility is very limited, one nearly has to crouch down to have any visibility of the track ahead.
In both accidents you sited the main reason student engineers. for what ever reason he didnt want to make waves they never saw the previos signal and exspected someone to tell them the indication, when they got to the home signal it was to late long nose short nose at track speed 4 or5 cars away you wont stop. the biggest problem was other crew members asleep or playing cards. I run long nose out its not a issue on my area i can see all but 4 signals and none of them is at controll points. i will either get up and walk across the cab or yell at the conductor, the main reasons for the short hood forward is visibility in yard limits, and exhaust fumes. Now NS still has a few duel control units operating today they are 1500’s sd-40 and a few 1600’s sd-40 and i am not sure if the 4000’s gp-38 ( total of about 10-20 maybe left). I rather have long hood out it is safer.
I was not taking sides here, as I can see the logic of both positions. I merely recall that during the investigation, the student engineer made claims that the long hood prevented him from seeing the signal in time.
I have had the experince of taking a whale nose train with the long hood forward to chicago once and it definately was a team effort on watching signals and there was no being able turn your head or look away as you had to keep your eyes on the tracks every second of the way as visablity was rather poor
i have noticed a few of the 1600’s sd40-2 are dropped off on the franklin district (ex-atlantic&danville) every once and while but they seem to be disappearing. when the crew are working the yard, they will use a sd40-2 over a ge dash8. at train shows when i run my engines long hood forward, a few times, a RR employee told me that i was nuts for my sd60’s that way.[(-D]