http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=24264
Is NS accurate in saying that this is the biggest RR engineering project of the century? I guess it depends on how you quantify that.
I’d have to think that the Alameda Corridor in LA was a bigger spend and an immense amount of engineering, given the impacts to the community (streets, utilities, etc.)
Maybe in terms of pure RR engineering, the NS project would be bigger.
Actually, what the news blurb said is that it’s “the most ambitious railroad engineering project of the past century”. Either way, how do you measure that ? And - no, I would not consider this to be the top one, much as it is to be admired. Besides the Alameda Corridor of the early 2000’s, there’s the 1970’s BN Powder River Basin line, SR’s early 1960’S “Rathole” improvements, Amtrak’s NYC-BOS electrification of the late 1990’s, Santa Fe’s Ash Fork - Williams - Crookston line relocation of the late 1950’s, and my candidate - the PRR’s electrification of the 1929-1939 time frame.
Paul,
I would give NS greatest of this century, but of the last, the 20th, no way. I would nominate PRR’s Penn Station project in its entirety with honorable mention to construction of the entire Spokane Portland & Seattle, GN’s new Cascade Tunnel/Chumstick Line Change/Appleyard, and SP’s new main via Klamath Falls, Oregon.
The measure would be easy, real (inflation adjusted) investment.
Kudos to NS for doing the project. I presume they know the traffic will be there to pay for it. The traffic is the important issue.
Mac
I forgot to add to my above list the CP’s Rogers Pass new track alignment and Mount MacDonald Tunnel, etc., which was constructed in the 1984 - 1988 time frame
NS’s blurb said the “last 100 years” [emphasis added - PDN], so I would only include those projects that were mostly performed in the time frame from 1910 onwards. I believe Penn Station was completed in 1910, so it just misses that NS-imposed limitation - I have insufficient knowledge of the others mentioned by Mac to know whether they would fit within that time frame or not. Otherwise, I agree with Mac.
But we’re just ‘kvetching’ about it here. I’m much happier that NS saw fit to do the project, and that it has been completed, albeit more expensively to NS than anticipated. I had the good fortune to attend a too-short 1/2 hour presentation on it by NS’ Chief Engineer of Design and Construction, James N. Carter, Jr., at the AREMA Conference in Orlando onn Tuesday morning of last week. One point he emphasized was the excellent cooperation from the Operating Dept. in detouring and re-routing trains so that the construction forces could have the ‘track time’ they needed to accomplish meaningful work in each ‘window’, which varied through the days of the week according to where/ which tunnel was involved.
Paul,
The quote in “Progressive” was “in the past century”. I took that to mean the 20th century, you took in as the past 100 years. Either way it is total bombast.
Taking the last 100 years would eliminate Penn Station and the SP&S. I suspect the PRR electirification would easily win the title in the last 100 years.
Mac
Great project called out above and many, arguably were more ambitious as measured by various scales.
quote without comment – a press release from today, September 9, 2010:
September 9, 2010
RADFORD, VA. – Norfolk Southern’s Heartland Corridor – one of the most extensive railroad engineering projects in modern times and a template for public-private partnerships that strengthen the nation’s transportation infrastructure – officially opened for business today.
A ceremony at the railroad’s recently enlarged Cowan Tunnel near Radford marked the occasion, as Norfolk Southern Train 233 pulled through at 11 a.m. with a consist of 148 double-stack containers moving to the Midwest. Train 233 paused near the 3,302-foot tunnel’s western portal, where it was greeted by the corridor’s partners, designers, and builders, as well as news media and NS officers and employees.
Today I received an e-mail from Trains about renewing my subscription, and it featured the upcoming November 2010 70th Anniversary issue. One of the “highlights” is supposed to be the “70 greatest engineering feats of all time”, so I suppose we’ll have plenty to debate about then . . . [swg]
On other threads are comments about the newly-released song “Raising the Roof”, as written and performed by the NS musical group, The Lawmen. Here are the links to it, for anyone who is interested - it’s about 3 mins. 18 secs. long, if I remember correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFpx91KKWM
http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/project-updates/heartland-corridor/
http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/latest-news/media/category/heartland-corridor/
Well, “of all time” begs a lot of time, but if the scope were limited to the 20th Century, I wonder if the RR bridge across the St. Lawrence in Quebec would count? Still very impressive. Indiana U Press has a whole book about it.
A question from someone who is completely unfamiliar with that area. The release above states the route dates back to the 19th Century. Which companies originally owned the route, and from where to where. Any other insights or historical info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Bruce
The line from Norfolk VA to Columbus OH was part of the Norfolk & Western Railway, and was completed in 1892. From Columbus to Bellevue OH was built by the Sandusky & Columbus Short Line in 1893. It became part of the Pennsylvania RR until acquired by N&W in 1964. And from Bellevue to Chicago it was the New York, Chicago & St Louis (Nickel Plate). That line was completed in 1882, and was also acquired by the N&W in 1964. The branch from Columbus to Cincinnati was mostly New York Central, with some PRR. Norfolk Southern got that line when Conrail was split up in 1999.
Thanks Dale, I am going to have to add the
to my ever increasing list of railroads I had never heard of before.
Bruce
Bruce, do you have the following, which were predecessors of the N&W: Norfolk & Petersburg (between Norfolk and Petersburg), South Side (between Petersburg and Lynchburg), and Virginia & Tennessee (between Lynchburg and Bristol, via Walton, where the line to Bluefield split off)? All of these were in existence by 1868. In 1870, they were merged to form the Atlantic, Mississippi & Ohio, and about 1881 the road was reorganized as the Norfolk and Western.
Then later on, Allen added vaguely wasn’t the N&W owned by the Pennsy for the longest time? As witness both lines’ fondness for Tuscan Red livery during the passenger-train era.
A curiosity that gave a lot of folks a hard time on an earlier quiz topic was to ask which RR started passenger service at oint point, handed off to another later down the line, and then resume service under the original line. (Notice that is not a linear Milwaukee/NP or CB&Q/WP (or was it D&RGW) and WP.
Well, I’ve implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know. (Really, it wasn’t until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn’t exclaim over that too much, I guess.
I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD’s, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a “carbody,” more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to
I posted this on another NS Heartland Corridor thread yesterday. Think it may answer some questions on what lines were used before the expansion.
Being an investor in NS I was very interested in the Heartland Corridor opening. The press releases in the trade journals said the corridor would save about 250 miles on the trip between Chicago and Norfolk. I initially questioned this mileage reduction as i thought the work was just the opening of tunnel clearances and minor line relocations. To clarify this I contacted NS and received a very nice and informative reply from them. Yes, the corridor could not handle double stack trains until the upgrades were complete. Prior to that time double stacks were routed through the Shenandoah valley to Harrisburg then west on the Pennsylvania line or through Charlotte NC then up to Chicago. Both of these routes were significantly longer and the Heartland Corridor sped up the travel time and shortened the route. I commend NS for their great work in improving the route to Chicago. I am sure that all other investors in NS will also be happy with the improvements to the bottom line.
Al-in-chgo: I must challenge you on several of these items.
[quote user=“al-in-chgo”]
Well, I’ve implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know.
Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH.
(Really, it wasn’t until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn’t exclaim over that too much, I guess.
Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route )
I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD’s, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a “carbody,” more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep.
Unfortunately I have no source of information for any operations on the Bristol - Roanoke route after 1960.
[quote user=“blue streak 1”]
Al-in-chgo: I must challenge you on several of these items.
al-in-chgo:
Well, I’ve implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know.
Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH.
(Really, it wasn’t until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn’t exclaim over that too much, I guess.
Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route )
I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD’s, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W
In 1964 with the Nickel Plate and Wabash merger, the N&W inherited the remaining Wabash “carbody” units, both Fs and Es. I’ve seen photos that show some of them repainted in N&W black. Don’t know how long the remained in service.