Hello,
My project is a 60 foot ceiling layout for one Lionel locomotive pulling 12 cars. The track is Gargraves (flexible track), connected to an 80 watt Lionel transformer. I have no idea how many feeder wires should be installed (and at what interval? gauge of wire?) in order to ensure a smooth and fast operation of the train. Any advice that anyone is able to provide would be really appreciated.
With that length of track, in a complete loop, you may very well not need a feeder at all. Here’s why: Using the rule of thumb that most toy-train track has a resistance about the same as 16 AWG copper wire, the resistance of your 60 feet is 240 milliohms. However, that is only 120 milliohms for half the loop, which is as far as the train can get from the transformer. Furthermore, there is another 120 milliohms in parallel at that time, from the other half of the loop. So you have only 60 milliohms between the transformer and the train. Your 80-watt transformer can put out only about 5 amperes at best. If your train draws that maximum current as the worst case, the voltage drop along the track would be only 300 millivolts, which is little enough that you likely won’t notice it.
Of course, if your track joints are poor, they can add substantially to the resistance. A good precaution would therefore be to solder them. If you aren’t up to trying to solder the rails directly together, you can just lay a short piece of bare wire on the rail flange and solder that to each rail.
If you do find that you need feeders anyway, use 14 AWG or heavier, so that the feeder wire is better than the track itself. You can just run two loops around the room and connect them with a short tap wire to the rails wherever you see the train slow down.
Thanks for this excellent advice.
I have a track going around the top of my train room and I have used 14 gauge stranded wire with lock-ons every third section of track, with 16 gauge feeders to the lock-ons. The track that I am using is 027, mostly new. Also I am not using an expensive train in case something happens, like a derailment.
Even with brand new track I have had problems with electrical performance or voltage drop due to poor track connections. Remember this; the track at your hobby shop may sit there for three months before it gets sold and the time it takes to transport the track from the place where it was made to your local hobby shop allows for it to oxidize or rust. So only in perfect settings could you get away with not having less than six lock-ons for that whole track.
Lee F.
That is a lot of wiring! Is your track sectional track? Are the different sections soldered together? What type of a transformer are you using?
Thanks,
Robert
I am using 027 track with regular 027 curves, the track is not soldered but has 027 track clips installed at every connection. Some of my 027 straight tracks are equal to four regular straights in length so a feed wire every third section of track, even on curves. The transformer I am using is a post war type R 110 watt, 120 volt transformer. The size of my near the ceiling layout is 11ft 6 inch by 13 ft 6 inch. Another feature that I added was a passing track, but right now it has a pre war 224E & tender with two post war 2640’s passenger cars, that track is only powered at the ends for the lighted bumpers.
On another layout I had power issues with a passing track set-up and had to power it every fourth section of track, don’t know why but it was O gauge tubular and nearly new track.
Lee F.
If that 80-watt transformer that was mentioned is a CW-80, its rating is its output, while the rating of the type R is input; so those two are about the same. If your layout has voltage-drop problems, you need more voltage, not more power anyway. If it doesn’t have voltage problems, then the size of the layout has nothing to do with the transformer that you need.
Lee, I don’t understand how your passing siding could have bumpers at the ends. Do you mean that you haven’t tied it in to the main line yet? In any case, interrupting a simple loop with a passing siding and presumably separately powered tracks between the turnouts spoils the 4-to-1 resistance effect that I described above.
I would just put up the track, with the best track joints you are willing and able to make, and see how it works. If the train slows down, run the wires alongside the track and connect them as needed. (They can’t be seen if the track is higher than eye level.)
Bob, I forgot to mention that I used a two Gargraves switches on the siding, one coming off the mainline and the other to supply outside rail power to the sideline track and added bumpers at the end to keep the train on the shelf. No return switch to the mainline.
Just for your info, I understand about the small amount of resistance that is normally in most track. According to what Bob N. mentions I should not have half the problems with resistance or power loss that I am having. Could it be that where I live has something to do with the extra resistance in the track sections? South Florida has a very high humidity factor and I am taking a quess and saying that is why I am having so many problems with power losses.
Don’t know why but every time I do a large layout of track I always have voltage drop problems, even with brand new track. I slightly crimp the ends of my tracks if they don’t fit snug for me and I use track clips to help keep the track together and still I have problems with losing power somehow, so that is why I recommend adding power lockons every third or fourth piece of track. Also I don’t have to take down my overhead track system, as it is very difficult to take apart once it is fastened to the walls.
Lee F.
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and have to bookmark it. Good stuff. Thanks to all for working this one over. When I see video of guy’s running their trains at beautifully slow speeds without a hiccup or change of pace on large layouts I am impressed.
I used brand new FasTrack around the Christmas tree this year (4’ x 8’ with O36 and 10" straight section between the curved sections) using the 14 gauge hookup to the new terminal track from a ZW275 watt transformer.
I had a power drop-off at precisely the far end, corrected itself on the return straight coming back toward the transformer hookup just as Bob said it should, and no problema on the curve closest to the trasformer hook up. Just a simple loop with nothing else.
This was after lubrication and cleaning of all cars, all engines used (designed to run on O27), engine pickups, and track cleaning of new track. A thought…I had clean hands when assembling the track but did not think to clean the track pins on the new track. Connections seem very tight, track pieces snapped/abutted perfectly, but pins might be dirty. Or one bad pin connection on one piece of track. [banghead]
I see no slop, no binding, when the train runs clockwise. So the friction element seems ruled out. I may run the trains counterclockwise to see what I get.
Then I may switch the transformer hookup to another (less used) throttle to see if there is something going South in there. May try all 4 throttles. My problem could be in the transformer, though for the life of me I can’t figure what could possibly go wrong with a 55 year old never serviced transformer. [;)] Wonder if the transformer’s original power cord isn’t cuttung it any more. Plugged directly&n
I really doubt that the primary side is at fault. I think you would have noticed heat on the cord or plug if it were the problem. Furthermore, any problem upstream of the connection to the track would show itself everywhere on the loop.
I set up a similar-sized (16-foot) Christmas loop of old Marx O34 and O27. I used the rattiest pieces I had, as an incentive for myself to straighten rails, replace missing pins, tighten joints, and otherwise recondition them. The only cleaning I did was Scotch-Brite on the railheads after the track was down. I had no voltage-drop problems at all. (I was using a 1033, 14 AWG wire, and a CTC lockon.)
I don’t know how the Fastrack joints work; but that’s the only part of the setup that I can see could be causing trains to slow down at the far end of the loop. There’s just not enough track for the rails themselves to make a difference.
try using dielectric grease on the track pins @ each connection. it worked for me.
Because there has been so much confusion surrounding the word “dielectric” * (which actually means “NON-conductive”) are you actually recommending “dielectric” grease, or “conductive” grease, in this application?
Would you cite the manufacturer and model number of the grease that you have found satisfactory?
Thank you.
Note: variously spelled “dielectric” and “die-electric,” etc.
“Dielectric” grease may keep down rust and corrosion at electrical contact points, but by definition it shouldn’t enhance conductivity directly. Electrical contact is maintained more-or-less in spite of it.
You have to be a bit careful where you use “conductive” grease. In general it will do no harm in low-voltage situations as long as you keep it well localized; but if it gets where it shouldn’t be it could create a short-circuit. In high-voltage situations it can be deadly, because if it oozes out, it is roughly the equivalent of having liquid copper or silver escaping and carrying the nasty electricity along with it. (At least that’s my understanding.)
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conductive. i bought it a an auto parts supply. it was suggested to me by the owner of a train store.
“Would you cite the manufacturer and model number of the grease that you have found satisfactory?”
the product was permatex, the no. 81150? i remember on the package it said “prevents voltage loss”. i used it sparingly on the track pins applied with a childs water color brush and wiped off any residue on the track. my layout is 8x16 with two levels and 5 tracks one transformer connection per track. i use gargraves and standard lionel track. i have no noticeable power loss on any of the tracks.
That’s “dielectric grease”. It’s an insulator, not a conductor. Here’s the MSDS: http://www.permatex.com/documents/msds/01_USA-English/81150.pdf
Revisiting this thread as I am planning a similar ceiling layout in my newly finished basement. I need some help matching the parts I have had passed down to me from my Dad +/- my collection +/- new stuff if needed.
My room is 30’ x 12’ divided almost exactly into 2 rectancular sections allowing for a ceiling shelf style layout with two seprate trains. O guage train assortment, for starters, old O Guage track. By my calculation, I need at least 50 feet of track for each loop with the tightest allowable corners that will work. I plan to run the tracks with a ZW-275 watt transformer I have had for my whole life. Typically at Christmas, I simply put a lockon on the track, hook up the ZW and go.
With a run this long, will I need feeders? How far apart? What guage wire? Do I set up the track on the floor and try it before mounting to the shelf??? I would prefer to utilize some cork backing under tra
Bob, my answer to the original poster comes very close to applying to your situation. However, the fact that you are using old sectional track makes your case a little riskier, as the numerous old rail joints may be your undoing. I think I would put in a tap every yard or so and run a 14 AWG feeder pair all the way around, with both ends connected together and to the transformer. That is the lightest wire that you should use to be safe with your 15-ampere VW, in any case. It wouldn’t be much more costly nor difficult to use 12 or 10 AWG, as long as you are doing it at all.
The taps from the feeder bus to the rails don’t need to be nearly as big, 16 or 18 AWG, if they are only a couple of inches long.
I have often suggested using a “spiral” curve in corners, especially for a shelf layout. This involves beginning and ending a 90-degree curve at a corner with a section of gentler curvature, perhaps O72. The rest of the curve can be tighter, perhaps O31. This doesn’t take up much extra room at all at the corners; but it allows you to put the straight track much closer to the wall. Using only O31 forces you to put the straight track farther out, to make room for the train parts that swing to the outside of the track on curves.
Given the age of the track in the boxes, I am considering buying some new Lionel O-Guage 40" straights since the layouts will be simply rectangles around the ceiling. I can use my existing curves and some short straights to make the 9ft-12ft-9ft-12ft loops to decrease the chance of power loss over the track. Now…
Assume I am a total novice with wiring. Will speaker wire work? (I have extra from the renovation). Also, I have the opportunity right now to run wire in the celing/wall for the whole loop as it is not finished yet. Do I bury it or simply tuck in shelf corner if I need the bus run? If one large loop of 14g AWG wire is used as the bus, how do I connect the 16g AWG tap ins at each lock on? Cut then wire nut together? If the bus runs the whole loop, I am envisioning Transformer (A-U connection) → first/main lockon → first tap at next lockon → and so on back to solder at first/main lockon for a continuous loop. No additional wires back to transformer. Correct?
Thanks for the idea of “spiral” track to lessen how tight the corners are. Since we are buidling the shelves custom, maybe I will go with a combo of 031 and 072 as you suggested.
This info is so helpful. Thank you Bob!
Bob
Regarding conductive or anti-oxidant greases, I have used them for years on the track pins and power clip ons with the Gilbert track. I find it very effective. There is a minor difference with Gilbert versus Lionel track (other than we only get two rails for our money), that difference is Gilbert track is not plated, it is a solid steel rail that can be sanded or filed without danger of removing the plating or increasing the tendency to rust.
The grease I have used is GB Ox-Gard.by GB Electrical, Inc. Its primary purpose is protecting Copper to Aluminum connections in power wiring. I buy it at Home Depot.