Does Anyone Have Any Updates or Leads on NYC 4-8-2 #3001 in Elkhart,IN? Haven’t seen much news about her and was wondering what the deal is and why people are hiding away from her being shown on a trip for her rebuild. Any Thoughts, Input or Leads? Thanks
Cosmetic restoration?
If it’s a restoration to operating condition, wow. Why isn’t that getting any attention?
I Share the same thoughts you do Leo_Ames. A Locomotive Like Her Really Calls and Screams for attention. I know she is no longer at the Museum in Elkhart but where did she go? Makes One Wonder…
The Mohawk’s no longer in Elkhardt? Really? I hadn’t heard about that. The last pictures I’d seen of it it seemed to be “all there” physically but in poor shape cosmetically. I f anyone knows anything please pass it along.
I keep up on lots of railroad museums and there is nothing out there to suggest that the Mohawk has left Elkhart. There was a plan (scheme) a few years ago to restore it to running operation, but like most plans to restore a large steam engine to operation, it fell through.
Steve
Does Anyone Have Any Updates or Leads on NYC 4-8-2 #3001 in Elkhart,IN? Haven’t seen much news about her and was wondering what the deal is and why people are hiding away from her being shown on a trip for her rebuild. Any Thoughts, Input or Leads? Thanks
The last news I heard on the project was a reluctance on the part of the City of Elkhart to agree to terms proposed from two individual ventures. They wanted to lease the locomotive for a monthly fee paid to the museum and term of 15 years, the same time frame as an FRA boiler inspections. The city felt that was too long a time for the locomotive to not be in Elkhart and may have an influence on museum visitors. Once returned to the museum after 15 years another effort would then have to be made to keep her running, again. Apparently running the locomotive was not going to be a benefit to the city. Politics played a part in this and may have curtailed any efforts moving forth. If anything has occured since it has not been made public.
Well some of us feel that history has born out the fact that the New York Central Railroad was the premere passenger railroad in America for most of the last century. Further, its steam power was among the best engineered thanks to Steam Locomotive Design Engineer Paul Keifer and others.
Now whoever wants to run this 4-8-2 should figure that Elkhart, Indiana is not going to let it go into operation without the overcoming of the objections of a disfunctional city government! Why is this such a strange concept to them? If they ran excursions from Elkhart to Chicago tourists would come from all over the world to Elkhart to ride it!
In America it seems odd that a few assorted freight locomotives get rebuilt but the glory of the New York Central passenger fleet goes on rusting in Elkhart! Paul Keifer who designed most of the Central’s engines in his book Railroad Motive Power says “Considerable progress has been and is currently being made to reduce these difficulties and resulting delays chargeable to modern reciprocating steam. Roller bearings on axles, crank pins and valve gear, the use of alloy steel for machinery parts, refinements in design and insistance on careful workmanship have been of great help, and the provision of larger ash hoppers has permitted longer runs between servicings…” (p.42)
NYC Mohawk 3001 was among the most modern passenger steam power Central had, and more especially was a “passenger engine!”, it was equiped with precison running gear and balanced drive for speed. Further New York Central had more 4-8-2 Mohawk locomotives than any other type, almost 600 compared to 275 Hudsons and a mere 27 Niagaras, which means that this was THE large New York Central steam locomotive most often seen by most folks in America.
Seriously, this “Mohawk” engine had available 540
If you have the staff and financing set up to renovate and operate 3001, by all means contact the museum in Elkhart:
Robin Hume, coordinator, 721 S. Main St., Elkhart, IN 46516; (574)294-3001
My guess would be that about the same level of demonstrable cash in bank would be required for 3001 that the City of Nashville wanted to see for Dixie 576 – in the range of $4M. The city, understandably, would want to be sure that regardless of any sort of disaster in the restoration or operation of the locomotive, or arising out of any tour or fantrip, the locomotive would be returned to Elkhart in substantially good condition.
I’m sure you could put together an appropriate combination of volunteers and professionals to get the actual job done… but you’ll have to get this well established before expecting people in Elkhart to take your idea seriously.
i am 21. and i info might be wrong… but, based on what i know is that one of the two only surviving NYC 4-8-2,s. one was moved to either the illionis railway museum or the st. louis transportation museum. ( but i,m shure it the st. louis transpotation museum) it was talked back and forth several times of a cosmetic restoration to a opertional resto. and then to a operational resto. to then a cosmetic resto. as far as i knew it was ( supposed) to be a operational resto. but i have heard nothing for several years. but if it was to be the case. i agree that everyone would be gobbling this up to get more and track it cause it is a NYC 4-8-2 after all. [swg]
Wizlish,
I intended in my post to say something about the pedegree of NYC Mohawk 3001 of a mechanical nature. Mechanically this engine has all the heritage of the great NYC steam locomotives. The balance and condition of the drive wheels. The precision and alloy of the rods and bearings. This is no freight engine. The boiler and firebox design with a large grate area and combustion chamber could and did run the “Water Level Route” passenger trains with ease.
Although I am retired now, as a young man I was involved in the restoration of PM 1225 in East Lansing, Michigan. My membership number was #069. Now how did a group of students at the University start the restoration of PM 1225? Well they just got going out of plain enthusiasm and while they were working on their college studies. We were just a bunch of students who wouldn’t take “no” as an answer to the steam locomotive. A project that COULD be completed if it was just started. We just showed up and went to work with one intent and with with NO MONEY!
A retired PM boilermaker took interest in the project and he showed us how to do the boiler and firebox work. This volunteer contribution was the key part! Local licensed heating cooling business tradesmen contributed their skills and enthusiam, as did welders. Everyone was welcome to join the club and contribute all they wanted. I remember when we sat around someone’s living room talking about how to replace the cylinder head gaskets out of sheet copper. The piston rings were missing and we had them made by a local tool shop using original blueprints found in the library! We found out where to get what we needed and we went and got it. Eventually we aquired our own library and blueprints and documents for the locomotive. A professional engineer, Ron Crawford from FORD MOTOR joined the club and volunteered to oversee the fin
This post, and the quoted section in particular, changes the dynamic considerably (in my opinion). If you and Neil could put together a similar organization to do the work on 3001, and perhaps establish enough local ‘connections’ to obtain insurance for the City agencies that might be concerned about safety or the condition of the “asset”, I’d think most of the apparent bureaucratic considerations would be resolvable. That might not, in the short run, involve permission to run the restored locomotive… but, as you indicate, the most important part of the effort is the restoration. (I would leave the 1472-day-specific parts of the work, and perhaps anything that would require ‘specialist’ knowledge or parts, like the air compressors, to the end of the work; I’m sure Neil’s planning methods are at least as good as they were for the 1225 project.
Who has contacts at, say, the Purdue campus in South Bend? That might be a logical place to start ‘recruitment’ and publicity…
What a great story Doctor D! Thanks so much for telling it! It’s always a thrill to hear from someone who was “there”, if you know what I mean.
And you must get a kick out of all those Lionel “Polar Express” sets showing up under Christmas trees. After all, it IS 1225! It’s your doing they’re there!
Talk about dropping a pebble in a pond and watching how far the ripples go…
Firelock76, Overmod et al.,
Yes it has been a thrill to have worked on PM 1225 and to realize in a significant way that the steam locomotive is just a machine, a very large machine that had a corporate use to society providing - transportation. By itself it is beautiful and useful in that context. As Union Pacific RR and Norfolk and Southern RR have demonstrated the railroad steam locomotive now has a huge “public relations” roll it can fulfill. Like a great sailing ship such as the US Navy USS Constitution, the steam locomotive can and does draw a huge public following.
To most people a steam locomotive sitting in a park is just so much junk, and rightly so. Whatever good is it? I am grateful that the museums and parks have been safe repositiories for railroad equipment that would undoubtedly not have survived. They are expensive to build and repair, do not surive the weather, and are easy targets for scrappers and vandals who return them to the dust from which they came.
The only real way to keep a railroad steam locomotive into the future is to use it and make money with it. This is something that appears lost on the City of Elkhart, Indiana. Particularly Dick Moore the mayor? Make money with it? This guy doesn’t have a clue!
PM 1225 for example has become the heart and center of a huge community involvement in Owosso, Michigan. The people of the city have galvanized around the public relations perspective that “Owosso really does have something to offer in the form of celebration of its heritage of railroading city from the past.” It is a civic event that Michigan State University Trust For Railway Preservation has restored the dusty forlorn rail yard into a fantastic place of civic activity. A new turntable and roundhouse have been built. The yard is full of restored and functional passenger trains that folks regularly ride on! When th
In all humility – this approach ain’t going to get it! Making fun of Elkhart and its people isn’t going to make them change, least of all if it’s only expressed on an Internet forum!
Put the organization together, get the student interest committed, file and get the 501(c)(3) for the Friends of the 3001 organization, get quotes and terms for the insurance … in other words, get everything done that needs to be shown to, say, higher-ups in Elkhart. Then go to them with an appropriate presentation, and be proactive rather than negative. You’ve made some excellent points, and between 1225 and 261 I think much of the work of ‘selling’ the idea has essentially been done for you already.
I volunteer for what part of the work I can do from here. But you need local ‘feet on the ground’ with the distinctive competence to work, and the people skills to overcome resistance.
I don’t think Doctor D’s making fun of Elkhart as much as he’s swinging a 2X4 to the back of their leaders heads to get their attention.
Leaders that can’t lead. A common problem. In that vein, let me pass along a quote concerning leadership (or lack thereof) I read recently that was worth the price of the book it came from. It’s from Stanley Resor, Secretary of the Army during the LBJ and Nixon Administrations…
"We get inadequate leaders because the people IN leadership are usually people who desperately want, and ruthlessly compete, for those positions. so the guys at the top are usually just good competitors.
And when havoc strikes, it is the ones who are officially in charge who often freeze or become unhinged. That’s when the true leaders, who might not be near the top simply because they have the good sense to avoid competitive, back-stabbing people, rise to the occasion and assume the role of hard, risky leadership that no one else, in a time of crisis, really wants."
Ain’t that somethin’?
National New York Central Museum - Alec
Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart/and City Atty - dad
Fort Wayne Historical Society - Wayne
Alec - Gee Dad when can I RUN my train engine NYC Mohawk 3001?
dad - Sorry son I just got it for you to look at, its too dangerous and expensive for you to actually use.
Alec - Aw gee dad! all the other guys have trains and they run them! - and it’s better than all the rest!
dad - You’ll just have to have fun just looking at it son - and besides your mom feels it is too expensive - you’ll just get into trouble with it!
Wayne - Hey Alec when are you going to bring out NYC Mohawk 3001?
Alec - My dad says its too dangerous for me - and it will get broken - and cost money!
Wayne - Cheeze! Whats the matter with him? - Doesn’t he know its made to be used? What’s the use of having NYC Mohawk 3001 if you can’t do anything but watch it rust to junk? My dad lets me run NKP 765 all the time! and MSU Owosso runs PM 1225! You should see all the stuff we do with it!
Alec - I think he and my mom are just afraid and don’t want to be bothered with me!
Wayne - Thats too bad Alec a dad should to stuff with his son! What a waste!
Ale
Firelock, I like your last post. I often observed in my working days that the people who wanted the leadership positions the most were usually the worst at it, but I never analyzed the reasons for it.
Thanks Paul! When I first read that quote from Secretary Resor it hit me like baseball bat between the eyes. “Ah”, I said to myself, “THAT explains a lot!”
As I said, worth the price of the book it came from.
The classic looks of 3001 along with its performance make it a real stunner in the world of restored steam. I hope folks can succeed.