Never heard this, could someone explain the story behind that?
THE MOHAWK THAT REFUSED TO ABDICATE
In September of 1955, David Morgan and Philip Hastings started a journey to photograph steam action for a Trains Magazine series. They started, appropriately enough, in Roanoke, Virginia, on the N&W. Then they recorded C&O and a number of smaller roads in West Viirginia before they got to Ohio. Eventually, their travels took them on a journey around Lake Erie through Ontario, to upstate New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, and Quebec. The result was a feature called Steam In Indian Summer, that ran in fourteen installments in Trains Magazine, one of the most popular features they ever ran.
After West Virginia and before they reached Toledo, (installment 4) they stopped a ways north of Columbus to observe and record PRR J1 2-10-4’s on the Sandusky line, then moved on to Galion where they found bedraggled-looking NYC L-3a Mohawk 3005 at the coal chute tied to a long train of dead freight. Morgan and Hastings agreed the train looked like too much for 3005, but veteran engineer John Hitchko was optimistic.
The pair moved on to Shelby, Ohio and observed several other steam and diesel movements on the Big Four, plus a B&O Mikado working the interchange. From the tower operator, they learned that 3005 had pulled a drawbar, creating a living nightmare for the dispatcher. Just when it looked like 3005’s efforts were bound for failure, they suddenly discovered that Hitchko and his conductor had gotten their train together and were, in Morgan’s words,
"…bearing down on Shelby with all the implications of destiny of the Book of Revelations, gaining momentum with each revolution of those four pairs of 69-inch drivers, making the legal mile a minute with ease and perhaps a notch or two better. The elephant-eared aristocrat of an Alco rammed across the diamond with smoke going high, the Baker up
Thats a cool post Tom, I can see the four coupled drivers rolling across the diamond and the train coming on. NYC in its glory!
I was reading that the new musem director for National New York Central Railroad Museum in Elkhart has recently replaced the former director Mark Frazier at whim of the Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart. “Because he replaces anyone who does not agree with him.” Mark was moving the museum forward in the restoration to operation of NYC 3001. This executive action was an effort to make sure Mohawk NYC 3001 does not steam again. Basically the mayor decapatated the museum structure. Apparently he wants the National New York Central Railroad Museum to be some kind of a “carnival side show” or “kiddy land.” The new museum director Robin Hume is from Elkhart Parks and Recreation Department. I do not believe she has the skills or could really direct the museum in the operation of NYC Mohawk 3001.
It is important to know that the City of Elkhart does not own the NYC Mohawk 3001 because it is on lease to the National New York Central Railroad Museum. I would question that The City of Elkhart and Mayor Dick Moore have broken the conditions of the lease of NYC Mohawk 3001 by changing the function and purpose of the Elkhart museum from operation of the locomotive to become a collection of railroad equipment.
If they are not interested in this railroad equipment its preservation and operation why should they even have it? It is really out of the realm of the function of city governments like Elkhart, Indiana to operate a museum of this sort. I question if a mere “kiddie tourist attraction” really was the original intent of the owners in the leasing NYC Mohawk 3001 to the City of Elkhart.
I think its time for the ow
Dr. D:
Maybe I missed it, but I don’t think the actual ownership of 3001 has been explained. Who does own the engine, and who owns the other display items at Elkhart, and what are the terms & duration of the lease?
Tom
Tom,
Here are some facts you asked about concerning the NYC 3001.
NYC 3001 is owned by Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation who leases the locomotive and rolling stock to the National New York Central Railroad Museum. Currently the lease was signed in 1987 for 100 years for $1. The lease has a long list of conditions regarding the leased equipment that must be met.
In 1976 the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation was started by Bob Spaugh who originally owned the current National New York Central Railroad Museum (aka Elkhart Museum) building and purchased it from Miles Labratories when they made Alka Seltzer and Flintstones vitimans on that site.
Bob and his wife ran a novel theme restaurant at the location, which incorporated authentic old NYC passenger cars as part of the dining room experience. This was called the “Freight House Restaurant.”
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation (aka The Foundation) ran steam excursions in the 1977’s to Middlebury and Shippshewana using a former Buffalo Creek and Gauly steam locomotive which was later acquired by one of these on line towns. This engine BC&G #13 is now preserved operational in Sugarcreek, Ohio at the Age Of Steam Roundhouse.
The Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation through the efforts of Bob Spaugh collected several Pennsylvania RR GG1 locomotives including the one used on the Robert Kennedy funeral train. This locomotive PRR 4903 was traded to the city of Dallas, Texas, for the former NYC 3001 Mohawk in 1984. This steam locomotive was moved to the Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation museum/ B
Dr. D:
I Googled Lakeshore Railroad Historical Foundation and found info that appeared to be from 1999-2001, with nothing newer. Is there any more current contact information?
Tom
Man thats depressing, guess the may or needs to have an " accident "soo we can repo the 3001[8D]
Man thats depressing, guess the mayor needs to have an " accident "soo we can repo the 3001[8D]
I NEVER KNEW THAT CONRAIL WANTED A STEAM PROGRAM
UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANES AND WITH TOTAL OUTSIDE FUNDING ASSURED, YOU MIGHT TALK METRO-NORTH INTO ONE
AND THEY DO HAVE THE TRACK WHERE A MOWHAWK COULD SHOW ITS STUFF, THE HUDSON NORTH OF CROTON-HARMON & THE BEACON TO MILFORD CONNECTING LINE, FORMER NEW HAVEN MAYBROOK LINE
I HAPPEN TO THINK IT IS EXACTLY WHAT MN NEEDS.
AND ESSEX IS NOT TO FAR AWAY WITH AMTRAK A FRIENDLY CONNECTION.
FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS, THEY COULD LEND IT TO THE LIRR.
A Mohawk running up the old New York Central Hudson line? Wouldn’t THAT be something!
I’m not sure what Metro North’s attitude is toward steam. I do know that the LIRR policy at this time is no steam at all. Maybe no-one’s asked Metro North yet?
A program like this would great for the operating peoples’ moral. MN needs all the favorable publicity it can get. It would require complete outside funding, however. Once it is successful on MN, the pressure will be on LIRR to change their policy, and the G5 will be able to return to LI!
A consummation devoutly to be wished Dave!
Another poster, Dr. D, mentioned a possible Conrail steam program years ago that died a-borning. When I think about it and the times it doesn’t sound so crazy. Norfolk-Southern had a steam program, as did Union Pacific, and CSX was hosting steam runs at the time as well. It goes without saying all were and are great attention-getters for the host 'roads, so it doesn’t suprise me the head honcho at Conrail gave it some serious thought.
It didn’t happen of course, but imagine the possibilities!
Oh, and if Metro-North needs some favorable publicity maybe they should re-introduce the bar cars!
Remember, people riding the bar cars ALWAYS wave back at people trackside!
Can’t imagine why.
All this talk makes me wonder… the general consensus is that we NEED a NYC Mohawk riding the rails again.
It might be worth starting a new thread, but what else do we just HAVE to have running?
2-3 years ago #1 on my list would be a big boy, but thats been fullfilled. So here’s what I think: (In no particular order)
-Pennsy GG1
-A Three-cylinder, Most likely the SP 4-10-2 at Pamona.
-SP 4460 (lost daylight), the war-baby sister of 4449.
-A rebuild of NYC Hudson
-The PRR T-1 rebuild (once complete)
-One of the freedom train locomotives (Complete with paint scheme)
These are just the first that come to mind…Now if my name was only Bill Gates.
Have a good one,
S. Connor
Wouldn’t take much money to make up a set of graphics that would fit 4449 now that she’s had her 15-year…
The SP Three-cylinder is 5021 a 4-10-2 Southern Pacific type.
Thanks, updated that post.
-S. Connor
A rather gratuitous slur on Alfred Perlman and those who remembered that the New York Central Railroad was first and foremost a business and did their utmost to keep that enterprise running as an ongoing business operation.
CSSHEGEWISCH,
Thanks for the post, makes me wonder what team your playing for?
Al Perlman took over after a corportate struggle that lead visionary New York Central Railroad CEO Robert Young to blow his brains out in his parlor with a shotgun. I really wonder what was going on in those days with that company?
What was behind the corporate merger in 1968 that combined two of the largest railroads in America? The New York Central and the Pennsylvania, into a union so successful that it was quickly followed with a questionable bankrupsy and loss of assets that almost brought down the western world with bank failures. The Fedral Govenment had to step in and guarantee the bank loans that saved the nation and thats how the government created ConRail, aka “consolidated eastern railroads.”
Check out the book Riding The Pennsy to Ruin, A Wall Street Journal Chronicle of the Penn Central Debacle. Edited by Michael Gartner and published by Dow Jones & Company, Inc., Princeton, New Jersey.
Public Utility Commissioner James McGirr charged the new Penn Central Transportation Company with “a pattern of neglect bordering on contempt for the public.”
I think it is pretty clear that what happened in the 1960’s - 70 was close to the banking scandel that almost brought down the nation in 2008.
Al Perlman was a major player and his attitude about preservation of a New York Central “Hudson” or “Niagara” was disgraceful. He was about as interested in steam locomotives as he was in a “toaster” or a “washing machine,” and I for one won’t venerate him on a railroad forum dedicated to “preservation of railroad steam locomotives.”
Thanks to him some of the greatest historic railroad treasures of American history were entirely lost.
So “sing me the song” of the
Perlman’s fiduciary and ethical obligations did not extend to mere locomotives. They extended to his public, his constituent workforce, to his board, and to investors. It must have made some sense to scrap assets that were effectively bereft of operational value in order to recover some of their material value. The rest is sentiment and historical interest.
To give Al Perlman his due, he was NOT in favor of a merger with the Pennsylvania. In his opinion it made no sense, two 'roads merging which essentially paralelled each other. Perlman WAS in favor of a “point-to-point” merger with someone, anyone, but not with the PRR. He was overruled and had to make the best of it.
In the end he was right, although I doubt he got much satisfaction from an “I told you so!”