I’d like to get a set of Passanger cars for my 2344 NYC F3.
My LHS has the #19171 set consisting of 4 16" gray painted aluminum cars, priced at $350, new.
My questions are:
will they run on 031 curves?
is that a fair price?
were they ever available as an original PW match for the NYC F3? Do they scale well with the PW 2344?
there is also a #21780 - 2 car set, which I presume is an add-on of 2 passanger cars; is this easily found new or like new, conparably priced?
I’ve also seen a plastic grey 4 car passanger set of shorter cars, for about half the money. Do these match as well, or better? For my intended (operating) use would these serve as well?
I know many of my questions call for opinion, not fact, but I’d still like some feedback. I’m sure some out there have one, the other or both.
I believe that the 2333, 2343, and 2344 were cataloged with freight trains until the 2500-series “Silver-whatever” extruded aluminum cars came out in 1952, but then only for the 2343, not the 2344. The aluminum cars should run on O31 (but not O27). If those shorter cars are 2400-series streamliners (similar to this one: http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=2421), they are noticeceably narrower than the F3s, which are fully to scale, and look a little odd behind them.
I believe that these may be more scale-sized, smooth-sided aluminum cars. May run on O-31, would probably have a bit of overhang. I believe this is a set I bought for use with the Lionel NY PA, but sold the cars and PA some years ago. You might check eBay, especially anything with a buy-it-now price for a value.
I checked my records and back when I got my 4 pack, I paid just under 300. That was a decent deal though, and at the time it was current production. If you really like the set, $350 doesn’t sound horrible.
If you are really serious about picking up the 2 pack, you should probably look for a full set of 6 for sale, as the 2 pack is less common than the 4 pack(I am trusting you on the item number - I did not have the 2 pack cat # in my list and can’t easily go look right now). I am not sure I have seen a 2 pack for sale individually in quite some time. If I recall, even when it came out, it was not extremely common to find.
Many times, however, people are looking to sell the whole set at a show (meaning also the PA-1 and PB-1 which you would not want since you have engines already for this)
Sixteeen inch cars on o31 curves are probably going to have a great deal of overhang. UNless that doesn’t bother you, they probably are not going to look very good on those sized curves.
Are these “16-inch” aluminum cars that we’re talking about the same length as the 2500 cars, that is, 15 inches for the body and 16 1/4 inches between pulling faces? I run a 9100 AMTK baggage car on my O27 layout (with the skirts cut off to clear the turnout motors). It’s a very subjective thing, but the overhang doesn’t bother me.
Bob Keller wrote, “I believe that these may be more scale-sized, smooth-sided aluminum cars.” Do you mean more so than the 2500-series cars, which were meant for O31? The 2500 cars are already fully to scale in all but length; and an extra inch is very little improvement, if it is even there.
Bob, the shorter cars I’m considering (4 car set, NIB, private sale $180, don’t know the nos.) are gray with white NYC lettering. I’m not sure if they are the same as those shown by Frank53.
Consensus of comments seems to be steering me towards the shorter cars, mostly for reason of the031 curves, not for prototypicalness (new word!). Did the NYC run gray passanger cars behind their F3s? And were they longer or shorter than the engines (scale ~12 in.)?
And what did Lionel intend either the 16s or 12s to be headed by?
Lionel F3s are reasonably accurate O-scale models. Almost any modern passenger car is much longer than an F3 unit. A scale model of a modern passenger car would be in the 20-to-24-inch ballpark. So all the streamliners that Lionel has made are far too short. The 2500-series aluminum cars are the correct width and height. The 2400-series small streamliners are undersized in all dimensions. For example, they are only 2 1/4 inches wide, more than a scale foot too narrow.
Lionel cataloged their 2300-series horizontal-motor F3s with aluminum 2500-series cars. They started pairing F3s with 2400-series cars when they introduced the 2200-series F3s with vertical motors. They considered the 2200 F3s to be O27 because they had only one motor and their center bearings had been moved close enough that they could get through O27 turnouts without problems.
The engines shown are the PA-1 and PB-1 meant to pull the set.
The actual full up train photo is on O84 FasTrack. Obviously that is much larger radius than you intend to run, but it’s what I have set up at the moment.
The single car photos are to show the O31 overhang. Granted this is only a circle (no straights to help a bit), but the overhang is serious. I suppose these are rated for O31, but the couplers can just barely make it to center over the middle rail.
I almost forgot to mention, the bodies are 15" as Bob suggested. I did not measure with the couplers too, but it would make sense that it’s 16 and change with the couplers.
Runtime, you also might want to consider looking for some of the K-Line Streamliner passenger cars. These were similiar in height and width to the Lionel 2400-series 11-inch passenger cars, but the K-Line cars were 13.5 inches in lenght with metal trucks and enhanced details, like metal handrails and rubber diaphragms. The K-Line NYC cars were first cataloged in 1997 and start with a 4570-number. I checked the K-Line Legacy website and unfortuntately, the cars are not pictured there.
Lionel has in recent years cataloged a number of add-on packs with the shorter NYC 2400-type passenger cars. Though they are more plastic than anything postwar, I’ve see them and the paint and graphics are very nice indeed.
The issue of scale versus non-scale is one that can really get confusing, especially to those newcomers in the hobby. I think what Frank53 has done is excellent… every photo I have ever seen posted of his layout shows just how realistic traditionally sized and/or postwar trains can convincingly appear to be on a well-done layout… even with tighter curves.
The choices of products available today is staggering when compared to the past. Personally, I think every modeler has to consider their space, budget, etc. and make decisions based on that. I’ve seen photos of layouts where all the trains were 027 types, and yet the layouts and trains all look good… even realistic to a degree. Obviously shorter types of trains will look better on tight curves than will longer full scale kinds of trains. In my mind, a scale length GP-38 look as toyish going around 027 curves as does a locomotive that is made for those curves, like a K-Line Alco FA.
I think one does better to stick to one size category of trains, rather than to mix and match. You take some of the newer more detailed cars (that are able to navigate 027 curves) and place them in a train next to less-detailed postwar/MPC era kinds of trains,
Working within the space you have is surely one of the items many folks overlook. There is certainly a lot of great equipment out there, but if it overhwelms your layout, track radius or other engines or rolling stock, it detracts from the symmetry of what your layout can be.
There’s no such thing as too small when it comes to trains, as o27 stuff looks really slick sweeping around o72 curves. Trying to get cars and engines to run on the smallest possible curves doesn’t look nearly as graceful, however.
“Trying to get cars and engines to run on the smallest possible curves doesn’t look nearly as graceful, however.” But it’s fun! At least I think so.
Actually, when I think about it, what challenges me is the other way around, getting the longest possible stuff to run on the curves that I have room for.
There might be some problems with derailments depending on what engine you use to pull the passenger set. Make sure that your engine has enough coupler slack or truck swing or it will derail like my Amtrac set of passenger cars did to me. I had to use an SD-45 to pull my 21 inch Amtrac passenger cars with, don’t know if it was a truck problem or what, but the Amtrac PH-40 derailed with that set of 3 cars going around a 42 inch curve. To me the SD-45 didn’t look right but it worked with my set of passenger cars. May try a GP-9 with the Amtrac set and see what happens.
So to start, I’d like to again thank everyone for their responses to this thread.
That said, I think Ive learned that Lionel in the post war era, offered the 2500 series aluminum cars with the F3s, but only as mostly unpainted (with some stripes and letering??) and only for the SF warbonnet seheme and I think also for the Canadian Pacific??.
Further, I suspect that the cars in the set I list in the subject line is from the same tooling - if I have this wrong I’d like to be correceted. If I’m correct, then it seems to me that these cars should look just fine with my PW F3. (???)
Dave, those PA1, PB1 engines…I’ve never seen them before, do they model some real engines?? They look odd to me compared th F3s
I spent half the afternoon researching NYC Passanger trains (instead of being productive!).
To simplify things, I gradually narrowed my focus to the 20th Century Limited.
Seems that only around 1948 was the Limited pulled by F3s, and only for a brief time before being replaced by E7 or E8s (have no idea what they are).
Don’t know exacty whatthe ’ 48 train’s cars looked like. Don’t know if they resembled Lionel’s 19079 set I’ve seen advertised on line, or the set I referenced at the start of this thread, or the MTh 20-6515, 6616 cars.
Any input appreciated. Particularly what the 19171 cars represent in NYC’s history. I what to put together an authentic NYC passanger train, preferabley one headed by my F3s, but if necedssary I’ll consider creating one headed by steam (Lionel PW or other Hudson or Niagra.
Two F3 ABA sets geared for passenger service were specifically purchased by NYC to be used on “The New England States”. Never the 20th Century
The 20th Century Limited during the late steam/ early diesel period was typically assigned Hudsons (earlier), or E7 locomotives. At times Mohawks or Niagaras would be used but not commonly.
