I am very familiar with the New York Central System and their comuter trains, especially in and around New York City. I probably have 30 books about the NYC, but not being a Pennsy fan I do not have even one about them. In a nutshell did the Pennsylvania Railroad also have as extensive of a comuter system in New York City, or perhaps some other City(s)?
Thanks for the information
Paul
Yes. Hourly trains known as clockers with gg1s ran Philly to NYC on the mainline along with mp54 locals. A number of trains ran gg1 to south amboy and then steam or diesel to shore points.
You’ll get better answers, but here are some things to get you started:
PRR controlled LIRR, but I don’t know if you want to associate LIRR’s very extensive commuter operations (even the “LD” trains like the Cannon Ball were more like commuter trains in terms of where they ran and what their clientele rode them for) with the Pennsylvania’s operations ‘under their own name’.
The PRR had direct commuter service along its New Jersey main line, and it could be argued that much of the traffic on the ‘Clockers’ was ‘commuting’ in nature.
There were also several services from central New Jersey, notably the still-extant service to Long Branch (later shared with CNJ). Dave Klepper will know more about some of the esoteric services that were offered at various times, including some services in the area that were not “New York” oriented.
Of course the major PRR presence was in the Philadelphia area, with ‘commuter’ service as far as Harrisburg, Trenton, and Atlantic City.
The PRR had commuter services in areas other than New York and Philadelphia. Pittsburgh was one, the Chicago area was another, although I don’t know much about either; at one time cities like Cincinnati and St Louis had at least one commuter train (if the definition of commuter train is a train timed to accommodate large numbers of people going to or coming from work).
PRR’s commuter services were even more extensive than the Central’s. AC11000V AC-commutator-motor MP54s ran from both Penn Station and Exchange Place Jersey City to Trenton, Phiadelphia (as locals), short turns to New Burnzwick during rush hour, and Perth Amboy. From Philadelphia Broad Street and then Broad Street Suburban Statioln to Norristown, West Chester, Chestnut Hill, Media, Trenton, New York Penn and Jersey City as locals, and sourth to Wilmington, and west to Paoli, a few continuing to Downingtown and Lancaster.From Baltimore north to Perryville and Townsend and south to Washingtonh. The Jersey shore trains ran behind GG1s to South Amboy, then K4s to Bay l Head Junction, some turning at Red Bank or (forget the name!). Beyond Pearth Amboy the tracks were shared with Jersey Central trains powered by camelback ten wheelers. Some of the Harrsiburg - Philadelphia trains were tijmed to provide a commuter service into Harrisburg, some locomotive hauled and some mu. Pittsbugh had G5 ten wheelers with P54 coaches running east on the main line to Grfeensburg and Latrob, and on the main line west to Chicago to Pitcairn, if my memory is correct. Chicago had commuter trains, G5s again, to Valporaso, with K4s in later years.
PRR was of course involved in the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines, furnishing locomotives and equipment along with the Reading. This included 600V DCtrolley-pole and 3rd rail MP54s on the Glassboro electrified line, which once was electriofied to Atlantic City. The streetcar line in Atlantic City was a PRR subsidiary and the modern Brilliners had a PRR classification.
The PRR and Reading Phily commuter operations, almost as extensive as the PRR’s, are merged into one SEPTA operation, with Reading Terminal replaced by the Market East underground station with its connecting tunnel to Broad Street Suburban, now a through station and not a terminal.
The LIRR, with its 600v dc MP54s and G5, E6, and K
Nowhere near, unless you count LIRR. Erie and DL&W had more commuters in NJ than PRR.
PRR’s service in the Chicago area lasted into the 1980s, last operated by Amtrak under contract These were the “Valpo dummies” to Valparaiso. PRR also operated at least one commuter-oriented round trip to Cleveland in the 1950s, though it ended at PRR’s 55th st. station, where passengers had to board Cleveland Transit to get downtown.
Nowhere near, depending on what you call commuters. Add the clockers and you have a different story. And add the LIRR and the PRR wins. But PRR had those other commuter operations in other cities. If the clockers are considered for both Philly and NY, then Philly’s topped NY. But again, NYC had its fairly extensive Boston commuter operation, labeled B&A on its steam locomotives, including lots of 4-6-6T and 4-6-4T tank locomotives.
But the question the op asked was not system wide just into NYC. I forgot about the Long Island which used PRR steam and was owned by the PRR for a long time.
Thank you folks for the inputs, I figured they did, and I was aware of the Boston and Albany operations. I assumed that the Pennsy did. I was just curious. So the answer is yes is it depends on how you measure. Roller coasters are that way. Which one is the highest, fastest etc., It depends on the criteria.
Thanks again.
Paul
Including the Philly-Harrisburg trains and the Clockers as part of commuter service might be stretching the boundaries a bit. This would be similar to counting C&NW Chicago-Milwaukee trains as a commuter operation since the trains were listed in the Milwaukee Division public commuter timetable.
From Wikipedia: “The weekday [PRR] schedule in September 1951 had six trains a day from New York to Trenton, seven from New York to New Brunswick, two from Jersey City to Trenton and six from Jersey City to New Brunswick. That includes just the trains that terminated at Trenton or New Brunswick; many more trains from New York to Philadelphia and beyond carried passengers to some suburban stations.” Add the South Amboy and Bay Head trains to that and it’s still a fraction of the commuter train count into Grand Central.
I would not disagree with that. The off-peak service on PRR’s mainline was largely handled by through trains, such as the Edision, which made most local commuter-station stops, despite running through to Washington. Only if adding LIRR does PRR come out the winner? And the LIRR did run more commuter trains than the Central. But on second thought the PRR is still the winner. Why? Because every Hudson Tube Hudson Terminal - Newark train was actually a timetabled PRR train betwen Journal Square, Jersey City, and Newark, and a joint H&M-PRR ticket was required, and half the rolling stock was labeled Pennsylvania and all the rolling stock, including the 50 cars owned by H&M were painted Tuscan Red. So PRR is stil the winner. Routes instead of number of trains, both had three, with the West Shore counted in the Central’s count, with PRR counting mainline, NY&LB, and Newark to JC and HT. Cannot count New Haven trains in the Central’s count. Uh, Uh, routes instead of number of trains? I think there were still two inbound and two outbound trains on the Putnam in 1953, so on routes, NYCentral is the winner with four. But of course the New Haven also had four, New Haven, Waaterbury, Danbury, and New Canaan.
PRR steam and electric trains shared the tracks with Hudson Terminal trains from just west of Journal Square to the junction at Kearney,and there was 11000V 25Hz`catenary as well as 600V DC third rail.
Neither the Edison nor any other NY-Washington train stopped at “most local commuter-station stops”, and few NY-Philadelphia trains did. In the 1950s if you wanted to ride Linden to Philadelphia without changing trains (or from Iselin or Metuchen or Edison) you probably had one or two trains a day to choose from.
I know of many people who used the clockers to commute to NYC. Trenton and Philadelphia had much cheaper housing and cost of living and much less congestion at that time.
Not sure of the year, but I did ride the Edison when it stopped at Elizabeth and New Brunzwick, as well as Trenton. Possibly I should have said the major commutor stations. My comment about the joint H&M-PRR trains still stands.
OH, and at one time the New Haven had a fifith route, the Harlem River Shuttle, discontiniued around 1931 or 1932? Ditto the Central with the Gettys Square branch of the Putnam. A short-lived electrification.
The Edison left NY after midnight-- far as we can tell from the timetables its first stop was Baltimore. No coaches.
In the 1950s, one or two NY-Philadelphia trains a day stopped at Elizabeth.
Aha, you are referring to the Edison when it was the overnight sleeper (and coach) train New York - Washington. I rode it a few times with that name and that schedule, but by then, on at least one trip, it also stopped at Philadelphia. But I also once remember going from Newark, DL to New York on a train that I recall being named the Edison, and it did stop at Princeton Jc., New Brunzwick, and Elizabeth and originated in Washington. My memory may be faulty on the name, however, but I was surprised that the train had the name of the former overnight sleeper train. The Edison that was the overnighter was replaced by NY Penn Station drop and pick-up sleepers on the Federal, which I also rode. I think at the time, the name was transferred to the train I rode from Newark, DL. You may be right that is was later than the 50s, possibly in the middle or late 60s. Beginning at age 11, in 1943, I rode what is now the NEC fairly frequently, even a youngster by myself, and it is hard for me to remember just which trip occured when.
Princeton Jc. was an important commuting point, and at least one Clocker into Penn in commuting hours in the morning and leaving similarly in the evening stopped there.
When you wrote Baltimore as first stop, you probably did not mean to exclude Newark, NJ. I am fairly certain the overnight NY-Wsh. Edison did pick up there.
Returning to the joint H&M - PRR Hudson Terminal - Newark service, there was dedicated equipment, all painted Tuscan Red, 50 cars owned by PRR and 50 by H&M and used indiscriminately. They all had PRR cab signal equpment in the cabs, which the regular H&M Stillwell-designed cars did not. The also had round end windows, unlike the regular H&M cars, but like the MP54s, and they were capable of higher top speed than the regular H&M cars, which they used between JerseyCity and Kearney.
If the PRR operation into Exchange Place, Jersey City, is considere
There was one more obscure NYC operation on the edge of the commuter district, the Mahopac Branch which quit by the end of the 50s. Toward the end there was a train that started in Brewster, went down the Putnam Division to Mahopac, switched to the Mahopac branch, down to Goldens Bridge, and then down the Harlem Division to GCT.
John Kneiling once wrote part of one of his columns about a book that related how some guys from New York City would take the late afternoon Clockers to Philadelphia to visit their mistresses there, then return early the next morning in time to be at the office when it opened. The point was how reliable and convenient the train service was, at least for that purpose . . . [swg]
Philadelphia - the place for discount mistresses??? [:D]