These are senile observations, does anyone agree with me?? I was stumbling through some Brass dealers on the “net” just for the fun (economics,you know) and came across a fleet of Northern Pacific steam locos, what a surprise, there were a LOT of different type of locos, I was amazed just how many different locos they used, now, my upbringing was with the Canadian Pacific, but I have to admit NP has(had) some of the finest looking locomotives I have ever seen, just marvelous. Now another observation, some of the used brass locomotives dealers were selling seemed to have lowered their prices in the last few years, can this be true?? what would be the reason? just too many on the market? the economy? any suggestions on the NP and the cost of brass lately??
When I saw the subject line, I thought it was going to be something about open platform, blunt end or streamlined observation cars[:D]
Seriously, I think that many of the older brass pieces were over produced and many dealers are trying to clear their stocks. Just like anything else, it makes no money sitting on the shelf. And with the advent of the newer brass locos the look AND run well along with the wonderful plastic locos we’re getting, I’d wager we’ll see alot more of the older brass prices coming down. And yes, the NP had a very wide assortment of good looking steam.
Rick
Frankly, back in the 60’s and 70’s, most brass sold by looks and details. They ran terribly, especially the steam engines. I had a Hallmark F-9 that was beautiful to look at but any Athearn BB F unit would run rings around it. Most of the older brass can’t be used with DCC, which a big detriment to serious modelers now. So I suspect a lot of older brass is being sold to collectors who want to display the pieces or are living under the delusion they are a good investment. Compared to many of the finely detailed plastic locos out now, the stuff of my youth that I used to salivate over is just plain junk now.
CAN’T be used with DCC? Why? Because they don’t have a decoder socket? Because the motor would have to be isolated from the frame? Because the motor draws too much current and would have to be replaced? Because there’s no room in the loco for the decoder? DCC is just a control system, like computer control of gigantic industrial machinery. ANYTHING that is mechanical and remotely operated can be converted to DCC control, whether it has anything to do with model railroading or not. It may be extremely difficult and expensive, but it is possible.
A more accurate statement might be “Most owners and/or prospective purchasers of older brass Lack the inclination, money, time and/or gumption to do the conversion or have it done.”
I have some older brass, and I certainly intend to convert it to DCC. Many others have already done so. Right now I lack the time.
I have a taste for quality. That quality is here today in Plastic. The QSI F units and the Big steam from BLI shows me what can be possible without going brass. And for the fraction of the cost.
Another truth in my home is the word DIVORCE. Yes. I go out and buy a 3000 dollar choo choo made somewhere where there is only glitter and quality but rots in the box for fear of sustaining damage. I wont have that choo choo with the wife. No sir.
That 3000 goes into savings. That is what sustains us when times are hard, not the shiney brass choo choo that might take 6 weeks to sell on ebay with fees to boot.
Also I grew up going to train shows where brass littered the tables and stacked on the walls with 30-5-100+ price tags (Unreachable by someone on a 5 dollar allowance) and seemingly in plenty all around the massive show room. Only to disappear overnight into tomes filled with dust and obscure markings and cryptic ratings to indicate market rate for quality or other information.
No, Brass is forever. But they are status symbols. I have yet to see a brass engine that is run properly, on trainset track (Oh the horror!) or otherwise improved to run on the fancy DCC today.
Dont misunderstand me, I dont mind 300 dollars for a good Brass B&O Wagontop that is complete and in good condition and it will be run round the track. (ESPECIALLY when no one makes it in plastic.) There is a certain WM Potomac that I like to visit online with it’s good paint and all around workmanship but at 1500 dollars is going to be a bear to convert to DCC and Sound. So It’s only to look, never buy.
Sellers of Brass and the Collectors that keep them fed and a roof over the head are all going to go the way of the Dinosaur.
Oh by the way, the Great Northern Railroads in that part of the USA were one hell of a railroad for a one hell of a Nation in that part of the land.
Cheers.
I, personally, own a bunch of brass steam locos, any of which would be an easy DCC conversion if I was so inclined. Some of them (a minority) are too small to accept a sound system without sacrificing all the weight needed for traction, but they would surely be able to accept a ‘speed, direction and lights’ decoder.
As for the NP collection, I wonder if there would have been as many NP locos in brass if PFM’s founder hadn’t been an NP fan.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
UP2CSX,
I have put decoders in several of my own old (1970’s) brass locos:
Overland M420
NJ/Custom Brass NH I-4 4-6-2 (open frame motor, DH121 decoder)
NJ/Custom Brass NH L-1 2-10-2
NJ/Custom Brass NH R-3a 4-8-2
NJ/Custom Brass NH I-5 4-6-4
Several of my fellow club members have also had decoders installed in their old brass (too many to list). Some even have Tsunami DCC sound installed.
Installing decoders in old brass is not impossible. It may not be easy, but it’s very do-able. A little patience and a little skill (plus those mini-plugs from Miniatronics) are what you need. As long as you can isolate the motor brushes from the frame (and most of them are already), you’ll be okay.
There are some old brass that you can’t isolate from the frame as the motor brushes are built into them. But perhaps a new, smaller can motor and a bit of silicon caulking may do the trick.
Safety Valve,
What HO brass loco is going for $3000 these days? The most I’ve seen is around $1500-$1800.
And as I was telling UP2CSX above, brass is a common sight on my RR club’s layout. Here’s a pic of (from left to right) my L-1, I-5 (in roundhouse stall #1), R-3a (stall #3) and Y-3 (the NYC power is BLI). All NH locos are brass, and all are DCC equipped. The shot is of our new turntable recently installed.
http://www.ssmrc.org/ssmrcshowspring’07%20008.jpg (large 3.1Mb pic)
Paul A. Cutler III
Weather Or No Go New Haven
DCC in Brass is not an issue as I nstalled a Tsunami in my CN Hudson. I have 2 Brass engines, which I got at excellent prices.
Brass allows us to get locos that unfortunately will never be made out of plastic as the demand is not there.
Fergie
I agree about NP steam being very attractive. It seems odd to me that even though NP created the first 4-8-4 Northern (and named it after itself), no one outside of brass has ever put out a model of one. Yet, we have numerous 4-8-4’s from other roads - ATSF, N&W, NYC etc. NP also created the first 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone - no models of that, but what, FIVE different UP Big Boys in the last few years in HO?? I’d love to see one of the manufacturers of UP Challengers come out with an NP/SP&S one instead.
O well.
[soapbox]
[:D]
Or WM, or D&H.
Paul 3, Just a quick note: I looked up some brass prices and they HAVE gone down, Key NYC #550 4-8-4 =$800.00 and Key C.P.R. usra heavy 2-10-2= $495.00 and a hon3 Sumpter valley 2-6-6-2 =$ 595.00, these are far beyond my reach but cheaper than $3,000.00. This brass thing has become quite a controversial subject.
Paul, Sorry but your pix link didn’t work for me.
I have 6 each of the I-4s and I-5s, and one each of the steamers and am conflicted about converting 15 locos to DCC because of the hassle and expense. You have given me some food for thought.
Would it be possible to put a sound module in the tenders?
Paul3 Feast your eyes on this:
http://precisioncraftmodels.com//store/index.cfm?event=item.display&item_id=31868
Just about 4,995.00 with a 70 dollar shipping surcharge.
It is more than what I stated but shows what is possible. The reason I used the 3000 dollar figure is, the wife saw these imagery and asked me how much those engines were. The room temperature plummeted and it took several days to bring harmony back into the home.
Just from looking at a webpage of a nice brass engine.
I should learn to keep my mouth shut, but that is something Im constantly working on.
The brass market has gone soft lately. But this always depends on the mdoel being offered. New brass that comes with factory paint and better motors is still rather high priced.
Older, unpainted brass is where you can find some real bargains, if you shop carefully. As some have noted, in most cases, there are no real roadblocks to installing DCC. But lots of people want RTR stuff and don’t want to paint brass, so much of the former brass demand is being satisfied with the fine new plastic models that have hit the market in recent years. But brass is the only place you’ll ever likely to find many prototypes.
That said, if the offered price suits you budget and tastes, then there could be a deal. If not, then it’s still too high. Always run it to see what you’re getting or buy it from someone that offers a reliable warranty/guarantee policy.
Just to satisfy my curiosity, does your wife ever drool over the latest collections by the big-name fashion designers? Three kilobucks wouldn’t even get her through the fitting room door!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - for less than my wife spends playing golf.)
Tomikawa, I read you loud and clear.
One day I will go into brass, I know that the market is improving and that I hope eventually there will be a fairly even pricing between high end plastic/die-cast to good brass.
I was taught that a good strong can motor is the heart of a good running brass engine. I dont know if it holds true today.
I must disagree…The brass steamers from PFM/United/Tenshodo,Sunset and Balboa was very smooth runners and can be compared favorably with todays plastic steam locomotives.
I agree that the Hallmark,Alco Models and Train Inc diesels left a lot to be desired in details and operation.
Also those old brass steamers turns up at the club by the ton on All Steam Operation.
in case anyone didn’t notice , that’s a 1:29 scale model , not HO like we were discussing . including the tender it’s 59" long (almost 5 feet !) and weighs 19 kilograms (almost 42 pounds) . considering those stats , the level of detail , and the likely number of buyers being in double digits at best , the price isn’t surprising
disclaimer: i can’t now , and never will be able to afford $5000 g scale brass , $3000 ho scale brass or even $1500 ho scale brass . bachmann spectrum sub $200 steam locos are exactly what i need
Guys,Like all things there are exceptions.
http://www.brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=006240
http://www.brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=007263
http://www.brasstrains.com/product_detail.php?p=007259
Its good to see the lower brass prices…Just maybe I can actually afford a C&O G9!