ODD? question

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

If I was just starting to MR, and heard stories about how expensive locomotives cost and saw the following in a recent ad.

All Brass

1.-- B&A 2-8-4 Berkshire = $295

  1. – C&O 4-8-2/ J2 = $350

  2. – CB&Q 2-10-4/ M-4-a = $295

  3. – CMSTP&P 4-6-4 baltic = $195 and 4-6-4/F6 = $325

  4. – Penn. 0-6-0/ B6sb = $295 and 2-10-2/ N2sa = $350

These models looked mostly mint, or in superb condition, all run well, all guaranteed and to me seem very reasonably priced, is there a reason MR’s do not purchase these locos at low prices ( wrong type–wrong railroad? ? ) or other reasons?

These seem to be a very fair price to someone just starting into the hobby, or am I not seeing the whole picture? I keep hearing about the high cost of brass, and yes, there were $1400.00 locomotives also.

Am I wrong the above locos are NOT resonable prices or am I not interpreting things correctly?

enquiring minds- - -

2

Those appear to be good prices. However, you need to look a little further:

  • Are they old or new runs? Older runs usually have open frame motors, and rather poor electrical pick-up. Newer runs have can motors and much better electrical pickup.
  • Guaranteed? If they have not been made for years(and maybe the importer/manufacturer is no longer around), how do you get service?

I have over the years bought a lot of ‘brass’(especially in the 70’s). Most of it looks good, and runs smooth on a 3’ piece of flex-track. They do not run very well around curves and through switches. I even have some Hallmark & Alco Models diesels - poor performers through turnouts with their ‘pick-up on the right front truck/return on the left rear truck’ electrical issues. Not great candidates for DCC/Sound! Later Overland engines are quite good runners, but as you noted - Big Prices. If you are looking for exact models of engines not available in plastic, they just may be the ticket!

Jim

3

JRB, I believe the guarantee extends only to if you are not satisfied, or it is non functional they will probably refund you money, although they may fix or replace it, - - - - I’m not sure of the run edition, they do indicate what type of motor is in it and/or replaced, some, by their type are probably quite old, but many appear to be in very fine condition if not mint, I would conclude for my dollar these may be just the ticket for not too popular 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 switchers no one seems to want—great for logging railroads.

Good to know about switch pickups on certain wheels electrical issue, always learn good stuff on this forum.

4

Using myself as an example, ALL the comments Jim made about poor electrical performance on curves and through turnouts have also been my experiance with most older brass - ESPECIALLY with locos as big as some of these are - even on my 36" and larger curves.

Next, only the C&O loco would interest me from a prototype standpoint - and for the price of that ONE C&O J2, I have already purchaced 4 Bachmann versions that run great and look great. (In actual fact I have nine verious Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains at a dollar cost average price under $100 each)

The Bachmann models are well detailed, pull well, have split frame electrical pickup and do NOT short out every other time the

5

If you are only saying brass can be had for about the same as the “expensive” plastic models, then yes, they seem to be “reasonable prices” for brass.

It would also seem to me you are insinuating that brass is “better than plastic”. No one has yet proved to me that brass is better than plastic. And plastic is NOT a “new thing”…they have been around for many many many years.

{Detailing is a separate issue here for arguments’ sake}

It’s like the DC/DCC thing. No one can really prove that one is necessarily better than the other, but perhaps it all comes down to what one pre**fers.

Sure, what is “better” on the inside that makes it run that can be important, but that can be argued til the cows come home.

You say " These seem to be a very fair price to someone just starting into the hobby", but you seem to fail to consider that each person may have a differing budget with which to enjoy the hobby. TO someone whose budget is $300-$400 a month, they may seem reasonable, but to someone whose budget is only $50 {or even $100/month}, it can be frustrating to wait till enough money is in the till to buy any brass loco, especially considering when one starts out in the hobby, one has all kinds of things to buy, not just locos!.

How To Books, Benchwork, track to run ANY loco on, and such don’t come cheaply either to the $50/month person.

i have looked at brasss, but I want DCC only and am not good at converting any DC loco to DCC, let alone the brass ones. I have looked at the cheaper brass, and wondered then if the more expensive ones were really “better” or were the cheaper brass “ready to fail” as “cheaply” tends to be known for according to some people.

I am in the $50/month budget, {though the last two years I

6

If I was just starting out, those prices would cause me to find another hobby.

I think most people starting out would want to spend a little less and get a complete set - track, engine, cars, power pack. That way they could get something running, add a couple of buildings, turnouts, etc. and see if this is really the hobby for them.

And of course if I did buy one of those and it turned out to be a poor performer, as mentioned above, it would really turn me off the hobby.

Brass is almost a sub hobby within the hobby, especially now that there good looking, good performing, cheaper alternatives. And while it has a place for the prototype modeler/operator, you need to be committed to the hobby first.

Enjoy

Paul

7

Not knowing anything at all about brass, what is it about them mechanically that makes the older models not like turnouts and curves? Is it because they simply don’t have enough electrical pickups and going across turnouts make some wheels lift thus losing what electrical contact they do have?

Same with curves?

Thanks,

Jarrell

8

I think those are actually reasonable prices for older brass that may need some love, but which make fine locos after one invests a little effort.

Granted, they’re still not cheap. But given historical brass prices, the market is soft for a lot of brass. If one chooses carefully, there are some nice models available out there. One example I’m familiar with is the market for HOn3 brass Rio Grande K-27 models. Except for for a few high-grade models, the Blackstone K-27 has put the hurt on most brass K-27s and displaced the brass on many a layout. I know it did on mine. The impact of the C-19 has been somewhat less, as it’s one among a number of Consolidation types the Rio Grande rostered.

On the other hand, the Blackstone K-27 has helped the market for other Rio Grande narrowgauge models. In my case, I didn’t buy any more, but have converted three of my brass locos to DCC/sound by installing Tsunamis in them. Admittedly, you need to like to patiently tinker with brass in many cases, but most issues with brass models have can be resolved with little effort once you do some careful troubleshooting. But if you snag a brass loco at a price like these and install DCC-sound, they’re the equals or betters of many mass-market locos. And if you shop carefully, you can get a loco, install a sound decoder and not spend too much more than you would on plastic.

9

Excellent responses, sort of what I expected, some electrical problems, maybe wrong railroad type also, I’m not pro or con on brass, but I have also not priced a plastic locomotive in 18 years so I’m blank on that subject, just what is the price difference between plastic and brass ? 10%-- 40%–50% I have an older brass 2-8-4 and I’m surprised just how little it can pull on a small grade, so I see there is quite a bit of discrepancy between plastic and brass in economics, reliability, selection, even vanity, etc. etc. One reply I must agree with was there seems to be a sub-class within the hobby for brass, makes a lot of sense.

For plastic locomotives is there the variety of locomotive (railroad) types that brass seems to have, of course brass has been around a lot longer, is the variety of plastic nearing the brass selection?

10

You could try out hockey You’ll need at least some skates (mid-range Bauers will run you $400), a stick (about $100 a piece for a decent one. Consider getting a three pack, you’re going to break them), a helmet (probably with a cage too. $120), and some gloves ($90) just to get read for some stick time down at the rink. You’re already $700+ in before you set foot on the ice. And didn’t get your shins, elbows, shoulders, a sweater, pants, pants shell, socks, and all the other little things like an equipment bag, tape, ice time, league fees, and so on.

Or you could get a motorcycle. You’re out $2000+ immediately, just for the bike. Better take your safety class, new insurance, a helmet, leathers, and all that.

Astronomy is fun. Fun after you spend $3000 on a decent telescope and a few hundred on eyepieces.

Hobbies are expensive. They all have massive startup costs. Deal with it.

11

Sorry I disagree. Many hobbies can be tried without spending a lot of money.

You can start astronomy just by going outside and looking at the stars. Follow that up with a pair of binoculars for $50 (or less) and later a telescope for a couple hundred dollars if your interest continues. Spending $3000 to start is not necessary.

Motor sports don’t require that major a purchase, you can rent a moped for much less than $2000. And later buy one if you like it still for under $2000.

I’m not familiar with ice hockey so I’ll skip that one.

Point is, for people trying out the hobby, $300 used brass locomotives is probably not a good starting point. Especially since you still need more stuff than that to start.

Enjoy
Pa

12

I’m going to completely disagree with all of that.

I am an amateur astronomy. Sitting in a field and picking out asterisms gets boring fast. That’s like going down to the hobby shop, getting a single RTR locomotive, and ending your flirtation with model railroading then and there. A $50 pair of binocs isn’t going to get a whole lot accomplished. They don’t have the resolving power for lunar astronomy, which is the extent of what you’re going to be able to do with even the best binoculars. You can start off with less than a thousand, if you’re pushing it, but things add up really, really fast. Optics are not cheap. If get in to it from the $450 telescope and $300 worth of eyepieces, you’re going to start ramping up fast. That first telescope was a Life-Like locomotive with horn hook couplers. I’m in for about $1800 so far and I’m on the equivalent tier as the guy with a loop of Unitrak and just opened up the box for my new DCC system

A moped and a street bike (or cruiser or what have you) aren’t even in the same league,

13

Jarell,

Most all brass steam locos use the frame to pick up power from the drivers, so the drivers only pickup from one rail. The pickup for the other rail is the tender trucks. Generally, the whole loco (all its metal parts) are “live” to the rail they pickup from.

The tender is often the same way - so just for one example, if the tender hits the cab roof, you have a short circuit.

Or, if an insulated wheel on a pilot truck or trailing truck hits the frame, you have a short circuit. Or id a pilot hits the rails on a dip in the track you have a short circuit.

And because so only half the wheels pickup power, the chance of loosing power is greater - especially on curves or through turnouts.

Many brass locos do not have good side to side driver motion - because they are trying to prevent these short circuits - but that limits how sharp a curve they will handle and adds to the pickup problems.

And often the “path” of the lead or trailing trucks is also not clear on sharp curves - again causing short ciricuits.

Hope this gives you some idea.

Sheldon

14

If you’re a beginner, you probably shouldn’t make your first purchase a brass loco – no matter how much it costs – unless you like looking at it sit on your shelf. There is a learning curve that is pretty steep until one has got a handle on a lot of basic info peculiar to the hobby. You’d be better off buying something that will likely run well out of the box or you’ll likely end up frustrated and drop out of the hobby.

As for actual $$ spent, $300 is a lot for some and hardly anything for others. That’s not something that people will see eye to eye on for a lot of reasons beyond whatever number it adds up to on an invoice.

15

The prices of non brass steam (I hate the term plastic because they all (especially steam) have lots of metal - even if the boiler shell is plastic) have risen a lot recently, but very nice locos with sound and DCC are generally about the same or even a little more ($250 to $600) as those brass prices you listed - but those brass locos would all need to be converted to DCC/sound by most modelers.

Non DCC, Non sound locos are still out there in the $100 to $200 range in many cases. And out of the box many of them are just as detailed, run as well or better, and pull as well or better than a lot of the typical brass listed in you original post.

My $100 Spectrum Mountains crawl at 1 SMPH, pull 35 cars on level track, have more detail then my PFM brass Pacific - we are still DC here. Actually the brass Pacific has a Bachmann plastic tender now.

I have been at this since 1968, and have worked in this business, yes, brass i

16
17

The plastic models of the last 10-15 years have certainly improved in both appearance and performance as have the newer brass models (that go for $800+). The plastic locos generally run from $250 to $450 (for a Big Boy) with sound and DCC… Most of the smaller steamers have improved pulling performance through the use of traction tires and/or weight, (most come with an extra wheelset without the tires for the user to change out, should one so choose),. You might want to check out some Model Railroader and Railroad Model Craftsman reviews from the last couple of years.

My first choice for locomotives would be plastic, I would only consider brass if it was for a specific prototype that wasn’t available in plastic. The plastic locos of today for the most part run pretty reliably.

If you buy older brass, be sure you have some tinkering skills, you’re going to need them. There are two solutions that can help with the poor pickup issues, either add more pickups, (need good electrical and solder skills) or hook up your turnout frogs so they are “live” This will cut down on stalling, but will not eliminate shorts. Shorts often show up with tighter than 30" curves as brass models are built to tighter scale clearances and were never designed to run on less than 26"-28" curves.

18

Sure you can try some hobbies out without spending a lot of money, coin collecting and stamp collecting come to mind. Most hobbies if you want to take them seriously have HUGE start up costs and then become relatively inexpensive. I drag race. My car has probably 30 grand into it and my trailer cost 8 grand but I only spend 25 to 50 bucks to actually race. Cheap hobby once you have the initial cost out of the way. I enjoy ATVing. I spent around 10 grand on two ATV’s and a couple grand on a trailer to haul them. Kind of expensive but a day out with the wife playing on the trails and the mud only costs about 40 bucks for a couple tanks of gas. Cheap hobby after the initial cost. My layout and my collection are way over 20 grand now, a fair bit of money but it only costs me the electricity to actually run it. Sure its not finished but the majority of the initial cost is done. All I do now is build building kits that I have already bought and add scenery with stuff I’ve already bought.

The point is that hobbies cost money. If you try doing things on the cheap initialy then I believe it is just wasted money. If you do end up enjoying the hobby, what ever it is then you will progress into buying the better stuff down the road and dumping your intial purchase.