So how about giving us dilettantes a few pointers when it comes to working a job,?
Ferinstance. I arrive at Thomas, WV with 24 empty hoppers and by the time I leave, I’ll have 19 loads with 5 loads off the branch spotted at Fairfax Mine for cleaning and sizing. I’m thinking out loud here and what follows below is not what I actually did (both from memory and what I wrote on the earlier post).
I assume I have left Knobmount Yard with a 5 man crew, engineer, fireman, conductor (me), and a brakeman at each end of the train (it is 1953, after all). I need to pull 11 hoppers from two mines (actually more like staging tracks) up a branch and replace them with 11 empties (6 in one, 5 in the other).It seems to me the most efficient way to start is to do the switching up the branch first, so we grab 11 empties off the train, pull forward of the branch switch and reverse up the branch… There are six loads at the Davis mine, five of which are mine run coal and the other is metallurgical (the little red mark on the hopper lip not to mention the coal order paperwork). During switching, I found out that the metallurgical load is the last hopper at Davis and it will have to enventually end up in front of the Davis mine run hoppers…
I pull the Francis hoppers and stash them on the Davis track temporarily. I now have 11 empties I can place on the Francis track (6 of which will have to go to Davis in a few minutes) and I can pull the all the cars on the Davis track, back up to the empties on Francis, and cut at the 6th empty and pull forward. I then reverse back up the Davis track and drop the empties. The last car in the loaded cut is the metallurgical coal, which needs to go with the 5 Francis loads back to Knobmount and points east. The 5 Davis mine run loads will be spotted at Fairfax for cleaning and sizing. What I need to do is put the metallurgical coal between the Francis cut and the Davis cut. I pull forward, reverse up Francis and drop the metall
1.Run engine light to Davis…Pull loads.Return to train.
2.Switch out the empties for Davis.
3.Place loads in train
4.Pickup Davis empties and take to mine.
Return to Davis switch.
6.Run light to Francis .Pick up loads.
7.Return to train switch out the empties and place loads in train.
8.Take empties to Francis and return to train.Add the lone Fairfax hopper to the Fairfax cut.
9.Proceed to Fairfax and do the require work.
The fireman will be in the engine cab at his seat.The conductor will supervise the moves and help if needed.
As you know before you proceed up the branch you reline the switch for the main and call the DS or tower operator and advise him that you are clear of the main and the switch is line and locked for the main…Of course when return you request permission to enter the main from the DS or tower operator.
This would be done by line side phone in '53…IIRC a Form 19 would authorized your work.There was various forms in the line side phone box.Either the head brakeman or conductor would call and fill out the required forms and repeat the order(s).One copy will go to the engineer and the second copy to the conductor.If the head brakeman did the paper work he would walk toward the caboose…Usually the conductor would meet him around half way and would swing on the caboose as it rolled by.The train would not move until the head brakeman return to the engine.
1.Run engine light to Davis…Pull loads.Return to train.
OK, maybe I didn’t supply sufficient info. I can’t run light to Davis. The train is fouling the switch to the branch. I’ve got to take enough empties up the hill to clear the branch switch. The only other PHYSICAL alternative is to stash some on the main, a decision which would no doubt cut my budding career short. I have no room to clear the branch switch by pulling some empties and temporarily spotting them on the Fairfax lead, because it’s not long enough. Regardless of what I do, I am required by the space constraints to take some empty hoppers with me up the branch. That’s the reality of the situation. The other reality is that I can’t have more than 11 cars + caboose between the east switch and the Fairfax mine lead. At 14 cars + caboose, the branch switch is fouled.
Theoretically, the Davis and Francis mines are several miles up the branch from Thomas (where the Fairfax mine ) is. Davis and Francis are closer to each other than either is to Thomas. Why make several multi-mile trips up and down the branch alternating loads and empties? Wouldn’t it be easier to do the work of swapping the loads for the empties on the branch rather than run up and down to Thomas? Apparently, there was a small yard in the town of Davis (see map in link below).
Map of the area:http://www.wmwestsub.com/thomassub/wethomas.htm Note the switch to the right of the town of Davis. There’s a mine at the end of each spur. Again, that’s theoretical as far as the layout is concerned. On the layout, Francis and Davis are about 8 feet from Thomas and the Fairfax mine.
As far as the prototype the yard at Davis puts a new light on the matter.That’s where we would do our work. since there’s plenty of room to work.
Why make several multi-mile trips up and down the branch alternating loads and empties?
Believe it our not it would be faster then see sawing and spotting cars on various tracks since each move takes time due to unlocking and relocking the switches ,setting hand brakes on the cars.You have limited room to work with if there happens to be derails for the mines-the track beyond the derail is privately own by the mine it serves and you may not be able to foul their track…
Wouldn’t it be easier to do the work of swapping the loads for the empties on the branch rather than run up and down to Thomas?
If there was room to work that’s exactly what we would do since there would be no logical reason to make extra trips if not we would use the Davis yard…
If there’s no room to work or no nearby yard then we would make the extra trips.
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Back to the layout.
Ok…You have a wabash passing siding and limited room…That sheds a lot of light on the problem.
The see sawing and spotting of the cars can’t be helped.
Still I would plan my work and work my plan using less time consuming work.
The above problem could be solved with a simple solution-shorten the turn by 1 or 2 cars so the siding won’t be wabashed.That is the key.
The only other PHYSICAL alternative is to stash some on the main, a decision which would no doubt cut my budding career short.
Actually that depends on the number of trains being ran.Some main lines only seen 6 or 8 trains in 24 hours so,if there was no train due for&
Highly dependent on what railroad you are on, what rule book you are using, what type of main track authority is used.
A “Form 19” is a train order that does not require the signatures of the train crew before it can be made complete. What type of train order would they be getting? I would think it would depend on what type of authority would be used on the main track and what orders they were previously issued.
For example if the train had recieved a form G running order with a return (Eng 1234 run extra Anna to Francis and return) out of origin, had left a brakeman at the switch at Davis when they went up the branch, the “branch” was an industrial lead or under yard limits, and they were operating on a road west of the Mississippi they wouldn’t need to contact the dispatcher to re-enter the main track at Davis and continue on to Francis or re-enter the main tack back at Francis and return to Anna.
Dave,‘53 was before I started railroadin’…I was 5 in '53.
The 19 was permission to occupy a section of track.I wrote few in '67 but,PRR line phones and 19s was on borrowed time due to the coming of radios…In '66 I was a rookie and most of the older heads attended to copying a 19 by line phone.I was allowed to hoop one up.
The most common 19 was permission to occupy a section of track between mile posts in order for us to do the require work between those mile post.
I know once we entered a industrial branch in Columbus we contracted the DS or tower operator and advised we was clear of the main,the Franklin Industrial led switch was lined and locked for the main.Upon on our return we would call by line phone or radio for permission to enter the main and return to Grogan(yard).We would receive a signal indication(usually diversion approach) for us to proceed.
The above problem could be solved with a simple solution-shorten the turn by 1 or 2 cars so the siding won’t be wabashed.That is the key.
You’re preaching to the choir. It’s that infidel of a coal manager who needs to be converted.
Hmmm. “wabashed”. I like that term.
The only other PHYSICAL alternative is to stash some on the main, a decision which would no doubt cut my budding career short.
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Actually that depends on the number of trains being ran.Some main lines only seen 6 or 8 trains in 24 hours so,if there was no train due for (say) 8 hours you could use the main-with permission of course.
From the time we arrived, we had about an 1 /14 hours until the scheduled arrival of #9, the local passenger. There’s no fast clock. The layout clock is merely a standard clock that can be started and stopped. As it turned out, #9 was a bit over an hour late. Even had it been on time, I probably could have used the moves you suggest with the simple expedient of pulling into the main and leaving the empties there while doing the schtick with Davis and Francis and still cleared #9 in plenty of time. Given that it’s actually only about 12 feet to both Davis and Francis from, it’s not going to take a lot of time to cover the distance even multiple times and adding slack time to allow for the actions of the guys on the ground.
This discussion has jogged my memory a bit. I know a guy who was brakeman on the SP in the early 60’s and he loved to tell stories about working the Monterey Branch, one of which is about the time he and the rest of his crew were invited into Lucius Beebe’s private car “Virginia City”, which got parked on the spur at Asilomar, not far from the sand plant at “Lake Majella”