Just saw 2 beautiful brass locos on ebay, they did not run and needed to be lubed, they have been packed in boxes for 30 years, now can anyone explain why someone would keep these works of art jammed in a box never to be seen again except to sell, Now, again, we can all do anything we want and that makes it right, I’m sure I’m not the only spun-out, crazy, looney, model railroader who cannot understand why someone would do this. I know if that’s what you CAN do then do it and that makes it right, maybe not understandable, but right. (and they are works of art)
Probably being sold by the estate of the purchaser. [xx(]
Tatans–
As a brass aficionado (not necessarily a brass expert) who buys brass to RUN, I have gotten my mind blown more than once by purchasing used brass that has spent its life safely ensconsed in original boxes and plastic-wrap.
Understand that the steam locomotives of the railroad I model (Rio Grande standard-gauge steam) are generally only available in brass, so I’m continually hunting the large-scale brass dealers for that perfect M-78 or L-131 or L-105 that I want to make my RUNNING collection complete. You’d be astonished (as I am) at the number of locomotives I have purchased over the years whose well-made Can or open-frame motors or well-balanced sprung mechanisms have never felt the tender thrill of 12 volts coursing through their detailed little bodies at all–EVER! And of course, the answer is–WHY?? Good God, these locos were built to OPERATE, not sit in boxes so that their ‘collectors’ could say “I’m going to die with more toys than you, therefore I’ll WIN!” Frankly, when I die, I’LL win, because my toys have been run and used and tinkered with and have given me tons of pleasure from their exqusite detail right down to their superb pulling power. You want a 4-8-2 that will haul almost as much as the prototype–get yourself an older brass model with sturdy construction and sprung drivers and well-BALANCED weight and go to town. You want to haul 80+hoppers behind a big 2-8-8-2? Try a PFM L-131 and let her rip. Okay, it weighs about 4lbs. Brass is SOLID. And it can be made to run, and better yet, the construction means these locos will LAST! If not, how come I’ve got 3 1964 Akane Yellowstones–two of which still have their original open-frame motors–and are hauling trains so long up my 2% grades that the headlights are illuminating the caboose? And I’ve got a BIG layout!!
People that ‘collect’
The fact is that the overwhelming majority of hobbyists into brass have always been strictly collectors - “runners” comprising only a tiny segment of the total number.
Some collected to display them as examples of some particular class of locomotives, or even whole trains. Others regarded them as nostagia items, perhaps representing locos they saw in their youth. For a time, there was a faction that actually considered them art objects. And, of course, more than a few purchased them for investment purposes (during the late 1970’s to the early 80’s this was an extremely profitable pursuit, with overseas buyers actually advertising in MR to buy brass at top dollar!).
For most of the period when brass was truly “hot”, running them was a real no-no and the models lost significant value if they showed any wear. Even painting was generally frowned upon and could lower their re-sale value. Much of the early brass also ran poorly unless tinkered with excessively. Taken together, these were more than enough good reasons for most brass owners not to run their expensive trains.
CNJ831
There are some ‘collector/investors’ who, for whatever reason, believe(d) that brass locomotives would somehow become the equivalent of Ming vases or original Picassos - achieving value beyond belief because of their (assumed) rarity and hand crafted workmanship.
By far and away, reality intruded on their dream worlds. While almost all undamaged brass locomotives command more than their original prices today, their owners could have made more by investing the same money in certificates of deposit. Their status as collectibles always was dubious (people don’t make much collecting old Lionel and Marx toy trains, or Yugos.) Present-day advances in commercially available models have erased their assumed value to the later generations of model railroad consumers.
Looking at myself as an average model railroader, if I want a model of (fillintheblank) to fill a specific hole in my operating scheme I don’t care if it’s made of brass, plastic, silver alloy or compressed cardboard. I DO care that it is cosmetically accurate and runs well. Most of that really old brass looks pretty good, but falls short in the operating department.
Do I actually OWN any brass? Lots of it - but purchased to operate, not to molder away in a box.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1960 vintage brass locomotives)
I agree with Tom: paint 'em, re-motor 'em (if necessary), modify and detail 'em, and by all means, run 'em. [swg]
Wayne
I must confess.
I have committed the ultimate blasphemy on a brass locomotive.
I bought an old Hallmark U30CG (HO scale, so this was the only option short of a several-hundred-dollar Overland model) for dirt cheap. I didn’t like the sound system that was in it (how is a coffee grinder supposed to sound like a diesel locomotive, anyway?), so I did some frame chopping and grinding, added new bolsters, and mounted Athearn U-boat trucks under it. Granted, it’s still in the box waiting for paint, but when I do run it, it sounds a LOT better…and with the Mashima motor I dropped in it, it pulls better too. [:D]
And then there are those of us who bought brass intending to run them, but for one reason and another haven’t. I have a brass Forney and a brass parlor car that have not yet been run in the 2 years I have had them. I’m not sure when I will run them, but one thing I have learned in this hobby is that if you see something you might want for later, better buy it now. There are a few brass cars that I wish I had bought when I had the chance.
Enjoy
Paul
I’m a brass guy, and I run most of it, But some have become favorites and they see a lot more track time than the others. I love em all, but some just run extra nice.
I also have a few that just don’t belong on my backwoods layout; I bought them for the “cool factor” - like my NWSL 0-6-0 that used to belong to Linn Westcott.
Some stuff just gets set aside and the satisfaction comes from knowing that I have it. Someday, after Linn and I are forgotten, someone will surely enjoy running that 0-6-0.
Dr. Wayne–
I KNEW you were one of the Good Guys, LOL! [bow]
Arjay–
You BARBARIAN, you, LOL!! And aint’ it fun?[:P]
And CNJ–
I’ve been collecting and running brass since 1958 and back then it was made to buy and RUN! What you’re quoting might have happened in the '70’s and 80’s, but back when brass first came out, we modelers were buying it to run. And run it did. And run it still does. I wonder, are these newer plastic steamers with DCC and all the electronics and bells and whistles going to last as long as my 45 year old PFM Santa Fe 1950 2-8-0 without stripping their gears and burning up their ‘mother’ boards?
I seriously DOUBT it!
Tom
about like the winton 2-6-6-6 I found on ebay, sat in a barn loft for about 45 years unbuilt
there was also a slew of other HO stuff as well as it, doin nuttin, sitting in the barn loft…
[quote user=“twhite”]
Tatans–
As a brass aficionado (not necessarily a brass expert) who buys brass to RUN, I have gotten my mind blown more than once by purchasing used brass that has spent its life safely ensconsed in original boxes and plastic-wrap.
Understand that the steam locomotives of the railroad I model (Rio Grande standard-gauge steam) are generally only available in brass, so I’m continually hunting the large-scale brass dealers for that perfect M-78 or L-131 or L-105 that I want to make my RUNNING collection complete. You’d be astonished (as I am) at the number of locomotives I have purchased over the years whose well-made Can or open-frame motors or well-balanced sprung mechanisms have never felt the tender thrill of 12 volts coursing through their detailed little bodies at all–EVER! And of course, the answer is–WHY?? Good God, these locos were built to OPERATE, not sit in boxes so that their ‘collectors’ could say “I’m going to die with more toys than you, therefore I’ll WIN!” Frankly, when I die, I’LL win, because my toys have been run and used and tinkered with and have given me tons of pleasure from their exqusite detail right down to their superb pulling power. You want a 4-8-2 that will haul almost as much as the prototype–get yourself an older brass model with sturdy construction and sprung drivers and well-BALANCED weight and go to town. You want to haul 80+hoppers behind a big 2-8-8-2? Try a PFM L-131 and let her rip. Okay, it weighs about 4lbs. Brass is SOLID. And it can be made to run, and better yet, the construction means these locos will LAST! If not, how come I’ve got 3 1964 Akane Yellowstones–two of which still have their original open-frame motors–and are hauling trains so long up my 2% grades that the headlights are illuminating the caboose? And I’ve got a BIG layout!!
People t
By far and away, reality intruded on their dream worlds. While almost all undamaged brass locomotives command more than their original prices today, their owners could have made more by investing the same money in certificates of deposit. Their status as collectibles always was dubious (people don’t make much collecting old Lionel and Marx toy trains, or Yugos.) Present-day advances in commercially available models have erased their assumed value to the later generations of model railroad consumers.
For the most part, old brass engines in mint condition exceed their original price only in nomimal terms. In inflation adjusted terms, they’ve lost value. For example, a brand new Westside SP GS-8 went for $135 in 1973, or the equivalent of $665 today. When available, you can generally get one in near mint to mint condition for $375-425. At least with CD’s, you’d have earned some interest on your original investment.
'Course, you remember the Beanie Baby craze of the 90’s, don’t you? Basically the same thing as the brass hoarders, but on a larger scale.
Investment grade brass. Yeah, that’s the ticket. At least you can run brass engines. Pity those who bought Confederate war bonds way back when.
Andre
Andre–
I agree with you that a lot of brass has only grown in value in nominal terms, keeping up with the price of inflation. Most of the used brass that I have bought from, say, Caboose Hobbies (which carries a lot of Rio Grande steam) I’ve been able to get at comfortable prices (sometimes less than a present day plastic steamer) and either are, or can be made into smooth-running locos with little, or minor ‘tinkering’ (for brass operators, ‘tinkering’ is pretty second-nature, anyway.).
There are exceptions, of course–some models running into the thousands of dollars, but then these particular models were quite comparitively expensive when they were first produced, anyway.
However I’ve found that for the most part, the brass that I WANT has only increased in value relative to current inflation rates. So for the most part, the brass ‘collectors’ and ‘hoarders’ are not doing themselves any favors as far as investment purposes. And they’re certainly not doing the modelers like myself who LIKE brass (and there are quite a few of us, obviously) any favors, either. Perhaps if they were to wake up and smell the coffee, they would dump their ‘objects d’arte’ on the market and ease things up a bit for the rest of us.
Just my opinion, you understand.
Tom [:)]
Andre, you and I agree on the ‘deflation’ of absolute brass values. Certificates of deposit also undergo similar ‘deflation’ of absolute value since the rate of inflation almost always exceeds the annual interest return.
Now, ready for a chuckle? The locomotives I run are brass (or zinc alloy.) My ‘nostalgia’ locos (assorted 4-8-4s, and a 2-10-4) that never run - are plastic.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
[i] However I’ve found that for the most part, the brass that I WANT has only increased in value relative to current inflation rates. So for the most part, the brass ‘collectors’ and ‘hoarders’ are not doing themselves any favors as far as investment purposes. And they’re certainly not doing the modelers like myself who LIKE brass (and there are quite a few of us, obviously) any favors, either. Perhaps if they were to wake up and smell the coffee, they would dump their ‘objects d’arte’ on the market and ease things up a bit for the rest of us.
Just my opinion, you understand.
Tom [/i]
I never did understand the “collectible” mentality. Things were designed to be used. Some years ago, my wife bought an old Victrola including some old (i.e. so old they’re single sided) records. In that collection, we got a couple original Enrico Caruso recordings. Every now and then, I wind up the thing and we listen to old Enrico sing Vesta La Giubba or we listen to Grofe’s Grand Canyon Suite or to Scott Joplin. It ain’t digital, it ain’t Dolby, it ain’t stereo. It’s still nice music. We only listen to music on the thing once in a while due to the age of the records and the equipment. The stuff was designed to be enjoyed, not hidden away in hopes of a future “killing”.
Andre
There really aren’t many things that appreciate in value faster than inflation, so generally things are not good investments. I really don’t think there are many “hoarders” out there, either. I do think there are a lot of us (I’m included in this) who own locos that we keep pristine just because we like them that way. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. My display case queens bring me pleasure by just existing in my case - isn’t that what they are ultimately for: to bring pleasure?
Folks derive pleasure in their own way, it’s not up to any of us to say who’s right or wrong.
As far as running brass, they do tend to need a good mechanic - so did the plastic locos of the 50s, 60s, and 70s. One of the things I like best about our current era of model railroading is the quality of motors and drive-train components. Even inexpensive locos run pretty well and a good gearbox and a coreless motor in a beautiful brass loco is poetry in motion.
I don’t have much brass myself, but what I have runs.
Here’s my DM&IR M4 and Creek Series Observation. A fool and his money…
Or if you prefer…
mj:
Money Soon Parted? If that’s the Yellowstone model I think it is, the answer is quite definitely YES!
Fool? For a locomotive that beautiful? No way. And I bet she runs just as beautifully as she looks![:P]
Tom [:D]
Yup. Barbaric and proud of it. [:D]
For some of them, you are absolutely correct…a friend of mine has a fleet of about 10 steamers of recent manufacture, by several different manufacturers. Currently, only two of them are operational. Some have burned-out boards, some have drivetrain problems, one has a problem with the electrical contacts being made through the drawbar coming loose at random.
To quote one of my favorite Star Trek characters (Scotty):
“The more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain!”