I have a question regarding two new, but old style (no DCC friendly) turnouts I have. I noted, while testing my newly laid yard, that where I have the old turnouts, there is an occasional short… Of note, I gapped the frog on both sides, making it look like (and work like) the new DCC models, except for the connection between the point rails (hence my problem). Here are my observations:
A. The wheels can make contact between closure rail and the stock rail, since the gap is only 0.075-0.085 inches, unlike in my standard DCC Walthers/Shinohara where it is 0.125 inches.
B. Since the point rails are all the same polarity (courtesy of the metal mid connecting bar) this causes a short.
C. I used my friendly NMRA guage on the engine(s) and the rails… all are within minimal tolerances, but the old turnout has more “slop” allowing lateral movement when the wheels are on the point or closure rails… hence the shorting
So, any thoughts on how to fix this? The second turnout is likely doing the same thing, but is in a place where I haven’t measured yet, but I noticed it doing the same thing a month ago…
Here were my thoughts:
Coat the inside (lateral aspect) of the closure rail with some insulating substance; i don’t think I would have to coat the top, since on my testing wheels, it appears the edge of the wheel flange hits the side occasionally (any ideas on what substance – I was thinking some of that black or brown paintable insulation for wiring???)
Cut the metal bar connecting the points (scares me, never done this… how???)
I look forward to comments on how others have fixed this problem.
It’s not clear to me what you mean when you say you gapped the frog on both sides – do you mean both rails that diverge from the frog, or both ends of the frog?
My experience with those old Walthers/Shinohara turnouts is that they are “hot frog,” meaning that the frog’s polarity changes according to which point rail is touching the stock rail, and the only insulatiion they need is to insulate both rails that diverge from the frog.
Thanks for the reply. I gapped the “old” style to look like the new style, so the frog is isolated (actually I have it wired so I can make it hot if I want). This may make clearer (copied from wiring for dcc… (thanks!)). Note where I erased the green and made gaps…
Brian
P.S. I also just read MR for april and someone mentioned using clear fingernail polish… anyone use this in this situation?
I understand your problem here and yes, finger nail polish will work just fine. That’s basically what the wire is insulated with (lacquer) in motor windings. Only problem I see here is that i would use two coats as the wheel flanges will eventually wear it away. Ken
I’m having the same prob with a couple of shinohara curved turnouts; some of metal wheeled cars are touching the point rails - it makes for quite a light show!
The gap you made in the closure rail is not going to help.
The problem is in the design of the turnout. The point rails are connected at both the hinge and the point ends. The DCC friendly turnouts have a hinge for each point rail and have plastic (insulated) throwbars. There’s really no simple permanent solution other than to replace the turnout with a DCC friendly one. The nail polish may work as a temporary fix.
Hmmm… I was hoping to not have to replace… shucks!!! Anyone use the nail polish method… how long does it last? It is on my runaround track, so pretty busy…
RP25 110 wheels are wider than prototype to allowfor looser tolerances in different flex tracks.The Shinohara turnouts use tighter tolerances as your measurements show.
The ‘Shorting’ occurs because the spacing between the points and stock rails is narrower, & the throw bar is metal.
Cures - depending on your skills:1. recheck wheel gage and (your choice):2. replace with .88 slimline wheels. 3. adjust guard rails. 4. trim one side (norrowing) of metal ‘throwbar’ 5.Replace the throw bar with non-conducting one. 6 Replace the entire turnout with the Walthers or BK.
I use all Shinohara turnouts but after checking wheel gauge I’d get the guard rails realigned to pull the wheels over (it’s the width of the wheels). When the guard rails are doing their job the wider wheels get pulled over. (A BK turnout spiked down with a NMRA gage will teach you a lot). or the Walthers turnout has a wider (and less realistic) space 2. and is ONLY available in code 83
NAIL POLISH method will cause electrical problems as well as wear off. Don’t use. If you’ve gapped both sides of the frog, The points need to get their electricity from the stock rails.
Thanks for the input… yeah, I was beginning to think the nail polish thing would only be a temporary fix. What would you recommend to cut the metal throwbar? Careful dremel work? Just wondering since I have never attempted this…
Brian
P.S. The wheels of my switcher mic out to 0.110 inches…as well as all my other stock and loco’s. The wheels are definitely in gauge…
I wouldn’t recomend that, the points will still be connected by the hinge. This just came to me: what might work; unsolder one point from the throw bar, shorten the spacer bar between the points a bit (1/16th"?) with a file or cut-off tool. then resolder the point rail, thus widening the space between the stock rail and the point rail. Hmmmm… I think I’ll try this later on today and report back.
Don:There is no guard rail at the point end of a turnout.
Thanks for the web page and advice…I plan to try that on the one in a little used siding. As for the other…well, I already cut it out and replaced it . Thanks again to everyone’s help… I will use some of these tricks on one of my curved turnouts that I WILL NOT replace, due to cost and the difficulty I had getting it perfect (on a superelevated curve!).
. Thanks again to everyone’s help… I will use some of these tricks on one of my curved turnouts that I WILL NOT replace, due to cost and the difficulty I had getting it perfect (on a superelevated curve!).