I replied that we’d revisit that thread in a year. Can’t post to it anymore since it was locked, but that’s irrelevant.
I haven’t heard any breakthroughs in development of sleep management, though. Some small things were done on my road - like text message updates for those on extra lists, and 2 rest days per week (and guarantees) for the extra list guys, but neither one really that impressive.
Where’s the discussion of USAF/SAC ‘power naps’ or wolf-naps when you need it?
I think the ‘breakthrough approach’ is already rolled into the implicit structure of PTC, with its emphasis on keep-you-irritated “vigilance controls” with enforced penalty braking or whatever if you’re too sleepy to jump through the hoops in time.
Lots of work done on detecting driver fatigue on the road could be easily applied to this, too – if the money’s provided for it. Not rocket science to implement, either. But until the ‘alert modality’ is changed from buzzer-in-the-ear (and canned attractive voice in the ear is not different after the first few instances, like the supposedly-attractive ding-dong bells for subway doors or that lady who says last-minute stuff to airline pilots just before they crash) don’t look for this approach to do much about the underlying problems. Not least among them, the substitution of learned reaction, or concentration of attention on the task of shutting up a vigilance system, for proper attentiveness in running trains.
The only real ‘system’ that addresses the underlying problem would be one that alerts the van people for a ‘mandatory’ crew change ASAP. That gets you into whole new worlds, not just cans, of worms…
I started that thread with the point that the NTSB had blamed the Iowa BNSF fatal rear end collision on sleep disorders without any proof; obviously using the crash to push an agenda. We had a very substantive 12-page discussion about the whole issue of sleep disorders and what policies and technology it would lead to. The thread was locked because it contained debate over controversial issues, and apparently some members reported abuse because others disagreed with their position on the issues.
There seemed to be a fair amount of resentment created by the topic, and this became manifested in nonsense, silly-talk posts for the purpose of distracting the discussion and getting the thread locked for degenerating into off-topic frivolity.
Overall, I see a fair amount of denial about the larger implication of what sleep disorders have evolved into, and how that limits the options for eliminating the peril caused by sleep disorders. It has grown into a very prickly problem. Thirty years ago, the remedy was sleep. Today, it has turned into a medical condition that has no clear remedy other than to take the employee out of train service and other positions where spontaneous sleep could be dangerous. It is a medical condition that has to be diagnosed and the diagnosis is highly complex and somewhat subjective. So I can see why anyone facing this prospect might feel threatened and in denial.
When the thread was locked I was told I could start another one, so I did. That thread is called Deadly Sleep Disorders 2.0
I started that thread with the point that the NTSB had blamed the Iowa BNSF fatal rear end collision on sleep disorders without any proof; obviously using the crash to push an agenda. We had a very substantive 12-page discussion about the whole issue of sleep disorders and what policies and technology it would lead to. I thoroughly resent the fact that the thread was locked because the action was unjustified by any forum rules. The thread was locked because it contained debate over controversial issues, and apparently some members reported abuse because others disagreed with their position on the issues.
There seemed to be a fair amount of resentment created by the topic, and this became manifested in nonsense, silly-talk posts for the purpose of distracting the discussion and getting the thread locked for degenerating into off-topic frivolity.
Overall, I see a fair amount of denial about the larger implication of what sleep disorders have evolved into, and how that limits the options for eliminating the peril caused by sleep disorders. It has grown into a very prickly problem. Thirty years ago, the remedy was sleep. Today, it has turned into a medical condition that has no clear remedy other than to take the employee out of train service and other positions where spontaneous sleep could be dangerous. It is a medical condition that has to be diagnosed and the diagnosis is highly complex and somewhat subjective. So I can see why anyone facing this prospect might feel threatened and in denial.
If man has had side effects from lack of sleep since before he walked upright, it seems kind of bold to suggest that the problem could be overcome in less than a year using technology.
Bucyrus seems to suggest that the answer would be some kind of system that monitors when the mind falls asleep, and - I don’t know- sets off an alarm clock? Wouldn’t such a system had to be bolted to the engineer’s head? Bucyrus mentions that he has a vision of what works, but no name. May I suggest calling it the the Harrison Bergeron Bonnet?
Yes, as I recall, I had predicted that the solution would be portable, compact, real-time fatigue monitor, and then zugmann said:
zugmann
Serious? By proposing some magical bullet? And now you are proposing this bullet will be ready in a year?
Give me a break, Bucyrus. We’re discussing actual proposals (And their downfalls) and all you can do is play make-believe with some magical invention.
Still, me and the rest of the operating guys will await eagerly for this magical bullet. Let’s all come back to this thread in one year. How about it?
So in honor of zugmann, I dubbed the device the MAGIC BULLET.
So here you go. Here is the SmartCap, which seems to exactly correspond to my predicted MAGIC BULLET. It looks like it is way ahead of my one-year prediction. In the vehicle application, some of the components appear to be built into the vehicle, but I gather that the components could be carried by the wearer for non-vehicle applications such as for switchmen. Note the benefit of not requiring any scalp preparation.
You’ve never had to go to work tired, Schlimm? What are we going to do - fire someone if they had trouble sleeping last night on their extra list schedule?
Still not a magic bullet. Neat toy. But the real question = what comes next? How is this implemented to ensure crews are rested?
So, now the engineer will have to wear a smart cap that knows when he’s tired, or at least fatigued. Then what? Does it give him a good shock to wake him up? Or maybe it just beeps or buzzes? I suppose it could be customized- perhaps when the hat sense the engineer dozing off, it could play Smoke on the Water real loud. Then what happens? Like an alerter, does he have to push a button to make the music stop. (snooze button anyone?)
Down the tracks he goes. Tired, fatigued from lack of sleep. Every few minutes of so, he hears Smoke on the Water really loud, yelps, and hits the snooze button. What we have is a startled, tired, fatigued engineer, with a growing hate for Deep Purple. Now, what can be done about fatigue and lack of sleep in train crews?
There are no details about what the hat really picks up and responds to in terms of brain wave patterns. To be useful, it would need to be quite sophisticated to note the shift from beta to alpha wave activity, and then respond only when theta wave activity commences, signaling the beginnings of stage 1 sleep. Otherwise there would be too many false positives and the buzzer would be going off as several have indicated above.
You are missing the point by downplaying the sleep disorder issue as simply being tired on the job. It is not about working while tired or fatigued. It is about spontaneously falling asleep despite even vigorous levels of activity, without any warning, and sometimes with no pre-awareness of drowsiness or other signs that sleep is imminent. It is not necessarily related to a lack of sleep, being tired, or feeling fatigue. Instead, it is due to a medical condition developed over time by nightshift work. And more explicitly, it is a medical condition that amounts to a natural predisposition to being susceptible to this influence of nightshift work. That is the sleep disorder problem as it has evolved to exist today.
In last year’s locked thread, I predicted that the problem will be solved technologically rather than by experience diagnosis and treatment. I said this:
Bucyrus
The more I think about it, I see this problem being addressed with a technological solution. Re-structuring the work so that everybody works regular shifts is just way too much to bite off. And even if you did all that, you would still have people working nightshifts, so the problem will persist from that cause alone. You could spend a fortune trying to diagnose who is and is not subject to sleep disorders, and then medically treating those people affected. And even all that is not going to be a surefire remedy.
You are missing the point by downplaying the sleep disorder issue as simply being tired on the job. It is not about working while tired or fatigued. It is about spontaneously falling asleep despite even vigorous levels of activity, without any warning, and sometimes with no pre-awareness of drowsiness or other signs that sleep is imminent. It is not necessarily related to a lack of sleep, being tired, or feeling fatigue. Instead, it is due to a medical condition developed over time by nightshift work. And more explicitly, it is a medical condition that amounts to a natural predisposition to being susceptible to this influence of nightshift work. That is the sleep disorder problem as it has evolved to exist today.
In last year’s locked thread, I predicted that the problem will be solved technologically rather than by experience diagnosis and treatment. I said this:
Bucyrus
The more I think about it, I see this problem being addressed with a technological solution. Re-structuring the work so that everybody works regular shifts is just way too much to bite off. And even if you did all that, you would still have people working nightshifts, so the problem will persist from that cause alone. You could spend a fortune trying to diagnose who is and is not subject to sleep disorders, and then medically treating those people affected. And even all that is not going to be a surefire remedy.