I am currently reading Tony Koester’s excellent book on railroad operation and of the several operation systems he discussed, the two I am considering for my railroad are switchlists and carcard/waybill and I am interested in opinions on each.
He mentioned that there is software available to print switchlists but that the program assumes that all cars were switched correctly in the last session and that no car has been moved between sessions. As someone who programmed computers for a living (mainframes) I can tell you that any good program should allow for exception processing. Surely someone has figured this out. Can anyone tell me what if any software is available that allows for manual intervention.
The carcard/waybill system has some appeal for me but it seems like it might be a hassle turning the waybills for every car each session and I’m not sure I want to shuffle around a deck of cards for every train as well as having slots for each industry. How much work is involved with this system.
I am primarily a lone wolf operator who will only occasionally have guest operators. I want a system that is easy to learn and operate and is not going to require a ton of paperwork. The one thing I hated most about my job was doing all the paperwork and I certainly don’t want that to be a big part of my retirement hobby.
One other thing I want to mention is that I have no intention of running a fast clock system. My intention is to run off a time table with train movements and switching be done by a script. Events will take place in a specified sequence with occasional train delays and other exceptions be added in for variety. Whether it takes me two hours or four to complete a session is not going to be important to me. I want to enjoy this hobby, not feel like I am working under a deadline.
You could use tab-on-car. It’s simple, if you don’t mind the tabs on the cars. Each town gets a different color tab and each industry a code on the tag.
I use a version of car cars, without waybills. Each car has a card, with a list of desitinations on it. Some sort of visial aid, like a paperclip, keeps track of the current destination. Each time the car is spotted, the paper clip is moved to the next destination, so it can be pulled and forwarded during the next session.
When, I bother to actually operate, I use a switch list… It’s not nearly as sophisticated as some but it is computer generated… At the beginning of a session (lone wolf for the most part), I tell the list generator how many trains I want to run, local, through, passenger, etc, and it’ll pop out that many different lists. I don’t concern myself with car numbers either, only road names. Since most of my rolling stock is now flying the Wabash flag, it’s pretty simple and I don’t have to worry about whether a specific car is in the yard or not.
For the most part, I prefer local freights… The way the switch list program works is this… At some point, companies have ordered either materials or empty cars for moving product out. So, for example, companies A, B, and C will be awaiting deliveries, say, two or three cars each… The list program will generate an order list that states, deliver 3 40’ box cars to company A, 2 50’ box cars to company B, and a chemical car to company C. So the yard operator (that’s me) will build a train consisting of those 6 cars… Again, specific cars don’t matter with this system, so the first available in the Storage tracks will be what is used… The yard also has inbound and through tracks as it serves as both terminals as well as a division point (hey, what can I say, I wanted all 3, wanted them big, but only have the space for one… It’s a compramise)… Anyway, the hostler (again, Me) will pull an engine out of the round house (still to be built) and place a caboose on the end of the train (ALL trains should have a Caboose, I hate FRED!). The road crew (me) will pull out of the yard and begin making deliveries to the specified industries… What ever is on the tracks At the industries will also be picked up and brought back to the yard for resorting…
It’s a little difficult to follow in words but if you saw it in action you’d get it… If you are familiar with the Whit Towers Alturas and Lone Pine (ALP) this operating system is very similar in scope to that
Thnaks for the input. I’ve known about the colored tab system for years and know a lot of great modelers have used it including the John Allen on his famous Gorre and Daphetid, but this just isn’t for me. I just think that would detract from the appearance too much. For me, it’s down to either the carcard or switch list systems. I look forward to additional input from others.
You mentioned ‘exception’ processing - yes you can ‘edit’ the records to clear up an error. The problem is that you find the error as you operate, and most folks do not want to go to the effort to shut down to do ‘computer’ work.
The most common error is that a car did not make a connection and now is only part way to the point it was supposed to be at. Do you ‘delete’ it from the switch list, and then update a location file to reflect that it is ‘somewhere’? I am one of those computer types, and I do NOT use my computer for tracking cars. It does make the car orders and car cards(I model the 50’s and have not found HO scale 80 column cards and ‘old iron’ to use on my layout).
Virtually all the list systems allow you to edit for exceptions.
A difference you have to be aware of is that some lists are “real-time” and some list systems are “pre-run”. The pre-run systems run all the lists for the entire session at the beginning of the session. They anticipate that all the trains will pull and spot all the right cars and the connections will be made as scheduled. For example Job 1 pulls car A and puts it on train 2 who sets it out for Local 3 to spot. With a pre-run system if Job 1 fails to pull the car or make the connection with train 2, then train 2and local 3’s lists will be wrong (or even more “deadly” for the session, train 2 will have to wait for car A off Job 1 and Local 3 will have to wait for car A off train 2, putting the whole session late). With real-time systems you create a list, run a job, update the list, make a new list, run the next job, update the list, etc. If a car doesn’t make then all the subsequent lists will still be right. but you have to have a data input person (a yard clerk) full time.
Another big difference between systems is whether or not the program maintains a “PICL” (perpetual inventory of car location, pronounced “pickle”) or the standing order of the cars. Programs that don’t keep a PICL put cars in a yard or train (or maybe if you’re lucky a track). Programs that keep a PICL will tell you the standing order of the cars in a track or train, that is if you walked down the track or train in the direction of the list, the cars would be in the same order as the list. Verify few programs maintain a PICL.
Protrak is about the most sophisticated program I’ve seen :
www.protrak.cc
Another option is to use CC&WB (car cards and waybills) and then handwrite lists, just the way they did it up until the late 50’s and early 60’s when computers first started showing up.
One of the problems with car cards is that you have to have a card made for each car with the Road name and number at the minimum. This presents a problem then when new cars show up on OPs night as there are no cards made for them. The member now has no way to run his cars unless he does not switch them out of the train!
With the pin system you just put a pin on the car and away you go.
And the pin system I use does not affect the paint on the cars, as I use the poster putty to hold the pin on the car
As for pinning the system I have 800 cars and it usually takes me 45 min to do a max reset.
With the car cards or switch lists if the cars are moved between sessions then you have to go chase the cars and waybills down to get them matched again for the session (again a lot of fun).
I originally started out with Car cards and Waybills so I know from where I speak. It was just too much trouble to hold the cards, keypad, uncoupling tool, radio and then try and switch out the cars without dropping anything. Way too many Keypads and radios hit the cement floor and that was way too costly.
And NO ONE wanted to use a lanyard to hold them. And the members propped up the cards on the sides or the top of the cars causing movement problem when the other trains tried to move by.
Finally the membership said that things had to change or the OPs would be done! So the pin system was developed and not having to drill a hole in each car was priority!
We have been using this system for over 10 years and most of the other modelers in the area have changed over to it just because they finally realized that it was far easier in the long run.
Now I do use Scenario cards to run scheduled trains but the Locals are what most of the operators want to run. I am running 6 independent shortlines on my layout plus the modeled Conrail Lowgrade line. So there is a lot of switching to do.
cmrproducts said:
“One of the problems with car cards is that you have to have a card made for each car with the Road name and number at the minimum. This presents a problem then when new cars show up on OPs night as there are no cards made for them. The member now has no way to run his cars unless he does not switch them out of the train”
Very simple to solve. If its a home layout, no “foreign” cars allowed on ops night.
If its a club layout, then the members have to have a car card to run the car on the layout, just like they have to have the car weight, rollability and coupler height checked. When you have your car’s mechanically “qualified” to run on the layout, the car inspector gives you a car card and you use that for the rest of the car’s life on the layout. No problem.
In the case of the pin system, the Union railroad is using a type of pin system to sort out the different types of ore for the ore docks. They are using different colored tags on the cars and the ties are painted to designate where those cars are supposed to go. Why do you think that they did this? They didn’t want to spend the time to look at the type of ore that was in the car and then take the time to look at sheet of paper to tell them where to put the cars.
The way I use the Pin System is the most flexible system. I change the pins on the cars each time I reset the layout for OPs. And having a pin board with 50 or so pins to choose from goes a long way in keeping from putting the same cars time and again in the exact same industry.
With the other ways, at least the layouts I have operated on, the systems kept the same cars going to the same industries all the time.
And then one system, if a train was late it held up the next train out, as they had to wait on a car to fill out the train, that’s real prototypical!
When I repin the cars I have a list of all places that a boxcar, flat, gon, etc. can go, so I do not get a stockcar set out at a coal mine. This is the one biggest complaint/argument I have heard over the years about using the pin system. This corrects that myth.
The next one is (well the pins on the tops of the cars don’t look good). How many times do you see the tops of the cars when Railfanning from a parking lot? So you don’t really know what is on top of those cars?
And I hate having to keep picking up the car cards off the floor or propping up the cards against the sides of the cars!
Tag on car systems usually work well for simpler systems. The challenge is how complicated you want the routing and how much information you can pack onto the tack. The more complicated the tag system the more a “secret decoder ring” is required to interpret the information on the tag.
A tag on car system works well with a layout where the car supply is variable, such as a modular layout or a club layout where the members take their cars home with them after every session.
Having operated on numerous layouts that used car cards, dropping the deck isn’t normally a problem, and if you provide adequate work surfaces, there is no need to prop car cards up against the cars (one of my pet peeves).
A lot of the choice on car forwarding systems depends on the level of detail, the complexity and the degree of prototypical “feel” the layout owner desires. There are different systems that support virtually any option on the spectrum. Some people switch what the want to, some use handwritten lists on near prototype forms.
On my home layout (25 x 75ft) I have over 800 cars and can run 45 to 50 plus trains in an all day session (12 hours)(So we are far more intense than most home layouts). It is far from being a simple layout. I have 6 independent shortlines (that actually are independent railroads of their own) plus the modeled CR Lowgrade line.
The Modified pin system (tab-on-car) was the simplest system to implement. It is also the most forgiving in terms of new operators learning. If they make mistakes no one knows or they can be easily corrected (misplaced cars) as the next train can pick up the misplaced cars and move them. No losing cards, no dropped cards and adding new cars to the layout is easy, just pin them. No need to make a new card. This works out great when visiting operators want to see their equipment run on the layout.
I use plastic covered colored tacks with the center pin removed. I then fill in the center with poster putty. This is what holds the tack on the car and does not affect the finish.
The base color of the tack indicates the Town and the center color dot indicates the industry in that town. A Monopoly type card is attached to the valance which lists the town color and all industries in town. A flag is located at each industry with the corresponding base/ind color.
I also make a list of the cars (boxcars, gons, flats) and it lists all of the industries that each car can go. It also lists the pin colors so you don’t get a stock car at a refinery. This is my pin board and I use it to go around and repin the cars which usually takes 45 min to do a max reset of all cars after an Ops session.
With my 12 hour OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) we always have a number of all new operators. They are unfamiliar with the layout, DCC and Ops! This is not always a good thing to have at an Ops! But with the simple method of car movement the new operator is up and running in about a half hour (as he/she is running the first train with a pilot). T
From a funtional standpoint, I can see a lot of advantages to the various tab-on-car systems but I can’t get around the appearance issue. To me, the tabs on the cars would stick out like sore thumbs. Until I see a car tab on a prototype, there is no way I am going to put one on one of mine. I know this is a matter of personal preference but that is mine.
The car card/waybill system will ‘work’ and the problems with packets or loose cards on the layout are solved with some simple ‘up front’ planning. All of my Digitrax throttles have ‘velcro’ on the back and a pair of matching ‘velcro’ stations at each town.
The car cards travel in a small soft plastic ‘holder’(much like a checkbook holder) I picked up at the local office supply store. Where my old DC cab control panels were, I now have recessed ‘work areas’ to do waybill processing, and a place to put your beverage container - Nothing goes on the layout!
Having a bunch of car cards propped up against the side of the cars in a yard (when making up a train) or trying to sort through 20 or so cards deciding which ones to set out is not prototypical either. Most modelers do not like work and this is just what it is!
I have seen more modelers leave sessions more stressed out than when they came. And a lot left the hobby altogether stating if they wanted this kind of work they would go somewhere where they got paid!
I loved Ops and would operate on any layout using any type of system and I think I have used them all. Now why would I go to all of the trouble to begin using the pin system when I had all of the car cards already made?
Because of the above remarks and this was at our club. Why have a big HO layout and no one would run it except to move trains round and round. Stress!
When I began operating on a layout using the pin system I thought the same about the looks of the pins and these were the mini map pins which you had to look hard to see. Once I got onto the system I saw how easy it was to understand but the method of repinning the cars was way too hard as the owner and one other member of the group were the only ones that knew what each of industries were and what cars they would take.
The one thing I did not like about the Pin System was drilling holes in the cars to hold the pins. And the members of the club said that this was not going to happen to their cars.
When I began developing the system for our club, I came up with the poster putty to hold the pins on the car but we used thumb tacks instead (the Modified Pin System). Everyone was happy.
When I began setting up my home layout, I wanted others to be able to repin the cars instead of me. I made a chart listing all of the possible cars with the associated color codes for the pins and this made it easy for anyone to repin the system on the fly during our OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop 12 hour sessions) This wa
If I were to go with the car cards, I would have pockets on the fascia board to hold them so there would never be a need to place them on the layout. I’m am leaning toward using computer generated switchlists if I can find a program that’s flexible enought to allow for manual overide which. I’ve been told that is available so I will probably give that method first try.
Even with the pockets along the layout (which I used at our club) we still had to have the car cards for the train we were running in our hand. So now, how do you hold 20 cards and sort through them, to decide which cars need to be set out. You end up putting some of them down!
Now they are on the layout or they get mixed in with the ones in the pockets (but wait we have 3 pockets for each town. Yep, but the operator is in a hurry and just dumps them into any pocket that is empty and they get them mixed up. Gee, which ones were in my train. Now more time is lost and the next train is due into town and I haven’t even figured out which cars to pick up yet!
Hurry now as they are standing there looking at me as to why I don’t have the train switched out yet. Getting nervous and now the cards get dropped and have to spend more time to pick them up. Quick try and sort them again. The Heck with it just move onto the next town.
Gee that was fun! And then when you pull into the yard and the Yard master begins to look at your train and the cards don’t match the cars you get the look! Just makes you all warm and fuzzy inside don’t it!
And you wonder why they didn’t want to do Ops. Observations made from years of Car Card Ops.
Bob H said:
"Even with the pockets along the layout (which I used at our club) we still had to have the car cards for the train we were running in our hand. So now, how do you hold 20 cards and sort through them, to decide which cars need to be set out. You end up putting some of them down! "
Sure you do, that’s why a layout owner provides a work surface or sorting rack to do that. Very simple. As far as knowning what cars to et out, that’s simple too. You do the same thing the prototype does. You block your train. If your cars a scattered through your train, you haven’t blocked it properly.
I have used tag on car systems and they are simple.
But I have operated on home layouts in 4000 sq ft basements (its amazing how much room you get when your basement goes under a 3 car garage) with CC&WB and there was no problems with the CC&WB system. Its really not that hard.
For a club environment where you get a wide variety of operating capabilities and the roster can be suprise every session, the tag on car system can be ideal.
I posted a web clinic a while back that covered many of these issues. It started out in the context of a 4X8, but all of the ideas would be applicable to those starting ops on almost any sized layout. http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=46614
I have an approximately 1700 square foot HO railroad and I am just getting ready to begin operations. I have operated with car cards and colored weighbills stuck to the car tack board to route cars but decided I want to try something different.
Since the prototype doesn’t move cars just to be moving them I want to have a shipper driven system. The proposed system will be very similar to the one described by rollimen above. The yard master makes up trains based on car types and the number ordered by the shippers. When delivered, the crew will pick up whatever is there and forward it back to the yard for distribution.
Because dispatching of cars is based on the car type needed and not specific cars (UP 50’ box number 1300056 or whatever), there is no need to restage, I can run trains between sessions without the need to remember where each car was at the end of last session and there are no car cards on the scenery, floor, in somebody’s pocket etc.etc.