Everything you are saying about operations is helpful and informative to me, and I am taking it all in.
But you have to remember, as an operations neophyte, I am like an impressionable young child.
Someone says it is best not to foul the main line with local switching operations, so I decide to take that advice to heart and try to avoid fouling the main line with local switching operations.
So, I start this thread and then come to understand that fouling the main line with local switching is not so bad and real railroads do it all the time. Still, I am intrigued by the prospect of local switching without fouling the main line.
Of my four industries, only one would currently require spotting a car on the main line since it is a single track spur. If I can add another track to the spur, then I can spot the incoming car(s) on the second track while I pick up the outgoing car(s) on the first track. As it turns out, I can add
Rich, if I can add my thoughts…but I’m no ops expert by any means…
Someone says it is best not to foul the main line with local switching operations, so I decide to take that advice to heart and try to avoid fouling the main line with local switching operations.
I think the concept of fouling the main mostly applies to large yards where a switcher must take a gawd awful amount of time to make up or break down trains. Inevitably, some train going somewhere will have to stop or the switcher will have to duck into the yard to let it pass. If it is a busy yard and main, the switcher would have to duck into the yard often and the entire railroad would lose efficiency. The railroad would likely find it beneficial to invest in more track, like a drill track separate from the main.
On a layout, having to occasionally duck into the yard to avoid a train might be considered challenging. Having to do it over and over again, would likely be considered annoying, so modelers may want to design a separate drill track into the layout.
I think what Dave showed in his example is more typical of how a local switches its train. On a model railroad, that local would only be a problem if, for whatever reason, another train was running at the same time along that spot on the layout. If your layout’s not that busy, the local should have enough time. But it also wouldn’t kill efficiency if just one train had to stop to wait for the local to move on, hopefully to the nearest passing siding.
How many trains you got moving in that one spot at the same time? You’re a DCC guy right?[;)]
Of my four industries, only one would currently require spotting a car on the main line since it is a single track spur. If I can add another track to the spur, then I can spot the incoming car(s) on the
Your dispatcher must give “Track and Time” to the local to do its work, thus the next through train cannot leave the terminal or otherwise proceed until the dispatcher gives the track back to him.
If the dispatcher told the LOCAL he could have the mane lion until 1400, then at 1400 his train must be clear and the switches aligned for the main line. AND the dispatcher and other trains will ASSUME that this has happened. If it has not the LOCAL train will have to call the dispatcher with a warning that the track has not been cleared yet. The dispatcher will hold the trains for you but the Superintendent will have your tail in a sling once you get back to your terminal.
To be fair though, the dispatcher will give you the time that you need, but it may not be all in one lump, you may have to clear the main say between 1400 and the time that train 2571 West clear your location, and then you can have the track back until 1600. WATCH THE TRAINS CAREFULLY, Train 2571 might not be the first westbound to pass your location.
Anyway, this is what makes railroading fun, or so they say. The LION, OTOH has his own way of doing things, and while running SIX trains all at once, an inspiration arrived in the head of the LION for implementing AUTOMATIC SIGNALS on his layout. It will probably cost about $200.00 so I will have to get my ducks in order and know what I want to do before I can take it to the Abbot to ask for money.
It just depends on how much money the railroad wants to spend to reduce delays. If you have multiple main tracks then the need for a switching lead or runner, is lessened. You just run the trains on main one while you switch on main two.
Part of it is that I am approaching it from the concept of running a local and you appear to be running a switch engine out to switch one industry at a time.
That’s one way to do it and if you’re happy great. I would just suggest at some time take the chance and switch like the real railroads do with a train, its really a lot more fun.
I am Just getting back into model rairoading so I am not trying to be an expert at this or anything like it. From what I have read it your origional post and the comments I just want to put my 2 cents in to see if it makes sense to you and everyone else.
Fouling the main is not a problem wether it be a branch line rr or a class 1 rr. If you have to do it to do the job then you do it. Where I am I have a shortline across the street that doesnt have to worry about it(Grafton and Upton rr) and CSX which on its main that it shares with the MBTA commuter rail(Owns the main from worcester/framingham to boston) has some industries that are off the main and they have to “foul” top switch it.
With the whole 2 spur industry track is it a large enough customer to warrent it? I know its not always fun to be purerly prototypical but most industries have to pay themselves for the trackage that directly serves them so if they don’t get enough frieght in or ship out to warrent having dedicated tracks then they don’t. On top of that (depending the era your modeling) most industries around my way that I’ve gone and checked out usually either just recieve or just ship by rail.
From an operations stand point usuing the main to switch would almost be better, You need to get the local switching done in a certain time frame if not or the locals running behind the crew needs to sit on a siding to wait for oncoming trains to clear. It gives a sense of urgency to the crews working the local on your layout. Also gives the “realistic” if the crew guys are having a bad day the dipatching has to think a little differently and the through train/passenger crews get a mix up to the normal routine. My personal opinion I think it makes for a more interesting session.
Again just my humble opinion and I am by no means an expert, hope my babeling made some sense to you and everyone.
Thanks for pointing out that difference between running a local and running a switch engine. I am by no means wedded to the concept of a switch engine as opposed to running a local. When you pointed out that difference, that previous photo sequence that you posted made even more sense.
Dave, don’t give up on me. I am learning, slowly but surely. I am open to all ideas and operations concepts.
I just hope that this thread, and the other related operations threads, are as interesting and informative to others as they are to me.
A big part of my concern is that I am one of those lone wolf operators.
I run both passenger trains and freight trains on a double main line.
So, while I am performing switching duties, I may have two trains running on each main line track.
Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations.
That is in large part why I am expressing concern over this issue and trying to do what I can to keep switch operations separate from main line through trains.
Kevin, thanks for adding to this discussion. I have to laugh at myself, because I have gone in one day from a single stub end spur to a double track spur and then back again to a single track spur. I just have to sort all of this out and decide what is most important to me in terms of prototypical operations.
The answer is that I started out anal 10 years ago with a roundy round concept. Make a big loop and run trains. That got boring quick, so I added a second main line with crossovers and started running trains in two directions around the double main line. That took a little longer to get bored, but that too happened soon enough. So I started creating freight yards, coach yards, sidings and spurs.
Now, I want to get into operations, but I am having a hard time giving up the roundy round concept.
And its OK to put one train in a station to let the local switch off the other main. With the exceptions of BroadwayLion, nobody else runs trains like subway trains. Its OK not to have a train going by you every 3 minutes.
Go sit by a railroad main track, even a double track and count how many trains go by you in an hour or couple hours. It won’t be a train every 3-4 minutes. That’s what the staging yard does. Its the surge basin. You run acouple laps with the thru trains, then you run the local in one direction on one main. Then you run thru trains on the other main and run local on the opposite main…
Its not a Christmas tree. Its OK it 15 minutes goes by with out a train going over the track. Its OK if everything isn’t utilized 100%.
Think about this. If you use the two track spur method then one spur will always be empty. Or…
You could use that real estate to have TWO industries, each with one track. Now you have doubled the types of cars and the amount of switching you have to do and you haven’t changed a thing except your concept.
I am living near Bussum, close to a doubletrack mainline with 10 trains per direction every hour of the day. No freight operations are existing today. In the past the number of trains per hour per direction was about 5, while lots of freight cars had to be spotted daily. Hence completely separate wayfreight tracks were constructed to keep switching from fouling the main. Only cars for the branch had to cross the main. The drawing with all those industries portrays the situation in the 40’s. The branch was the first to be closed.
Today the wayfreight tracks North of the main can still been seen, though it might be the last year. The runaround was in reality much longer then on my drawing. The distance between the roadcrossings was about 1/3 mile. Freight trains in Holland usually were no longer then 700 yards. Wayfreights however no longer then 300 yards.
The Fox River plan seems to be double track. Just as Dave stated the staging yards allows you to run one mainliner (on the red tracks mainly) and one wayfreight (on the blue tracks mainly) at a time or of course two main liners. If needed the wayfreight is able to cross over to the redtracks (for interchange or engine service) while the hotshot takes the blue.
Yes indeed, if you are familiar with Lance Mindheim’s work, you will understand switching can take quite some time. I do remember an article in Trains Magazine about a wayfreight on the LIRR. His daily job was waiting in the “hole” till the dispatcher finally allowed him a timeframe to do his work.
Paul,As a observation it seems the DS had lots of crossovers to use to run a train around the local as the local crew went about their work.
I wonder how the operations department got the ok to spend several million dollars to put in a “wayfreight” running track and yearly maintenance buget?
Dave, when you are running a local up and down the main line, spotting cars and picking up cars, do you eventually wind up with cars both at the front and the rear of the engine?
The dispatcher had a towerman to set the turnouts and signals so the wayfreight could enter and leave its territory. Only for taking cars from and to the branch crossing of the main was needed.
The branch was about 10 miles long with some major industries by its route. A huge chemical industry, with 4 spurs and numerous carspots which still exist today just a few miles down the road and at its very end a large brickyard. Also the coffee-burner, coffee filter and choclate factories were large with a couple of carspots too. Add busy teamtracks and the more then 10 (merely passenger) trains each hour and you have a typical model railroad situation; to much switching to be done not to hinder mainline traffic.
The tracks were built in the early 20’th century when acres were still cheap. After WW1 Bussum became a major commuter town, not even 15 miles from the centre of Amsterdam. Between a lake and the former coast the wooded area was a wonderful spot for the well-to-do from Amsterdam. My grand grand dad was one of the first who build a home half a mile from the station. The change to trucks started only in the 50’s in the Netherlands due to WW2. Then the number of cars spotted in Bussum gradually dropped. Today only the teamtracks and the track to the choclate factory are still in service, though i’ve not seen any freightcars on them the last decade. They will be removed this year.
Those tracks were probably worth their money cause so many freightcars had to be switched daily, without fouling the ever increasing commuter traffic and the long distance hotshots going as far as Berlin and Hamburg in Germany; both a 500 miles from Amsterdam. Coaches went even further to Moscou and Kopenhagen. Dispatching traffic on this road without delaying those
“Towermen” are not that common on US railroads with some exceptions. They were more common on Eastern roads in the “rust belt” from Illinois to the Atlantic. In the western part of the country, not so much. In the western US they would only be at major junction points to control interlockings. Once lines were CTC’d the dispatchers took over their duties.
