Heard an interesting discussion recently between a dispatcher and road foreman. Without getting into too much detail, who has the authority to stop a train, particularly if the road foreman was on the train?
Also after a stop, what are the rules for the train to continue? Does it need to move at restricted speed until passing the next signal, or can it move at road speed if it can visualize the next signal?
Also, what is the job description of a road foreman?
Anyone and everyone has the authority to stop a train when there is danger if the train isn’t stopped.
Authority to proceed would have to come from the dispatcher if such authority is needed.
Dispatcher is in charge of running trains, kind of like a traffic director, and reports to chief dispatcher and/or the Division Superintendent
A Roadmaster is usually in charge of the roadbed and track and employees involved in working on track and signals and bridges and usually reports to the Division Superindendent.
(EDITED: I misread road foreman to mean roadmaster. But road foreman could mean one in charge of the track under or instead of a roadmaster. Road Foreman of Engines is another position under the authority of Division Superintendent and in charge of locomotives or engines as well as supervisor for engineers and firemen; on some roads also has the authority of a trainmaster.)
If a roadmaster determins it is unsafe for a train to proceed on a given piece of track, he can authorize the train be stopped and not permitted to proceed until problem is solved.
Rules, proceedures, chain of authority, title, and job descriptions, etc., could vary from one railroad to another and different in different eras.
Not sure I understand the question, Ed…anyone has the authority to stop a train, given the proper circumstances.
Those circumstances would also govern permission for the train to start again after the stop. If the dispatcher and the Road Foreman are arguing about whether or not the train should move, the person who stopped the train is going to win.
The Road Foreman is basically a supervisor of engineers. If he is on the engine, he can take an engineer (or anyone else on the crew, for that matter) out of service for a rule violation if he so desires. On the UP, he was (last I heard) known as a Manager of Operating Practices. I once had to get a radio changed out, and the people in the office told me to “grab a MOP”. I said something about really hoping I wouldn’t have to clean the floor with him…
When safety is at stake, anyone has the authority to tell a train to stop.
If you enter a block on a proceed signal indication that dosen’t require restricted speed and you stop or your speed drops below 10 mph, you’re delayed in the block. GCOR rule number is 9.9 and a good way to remember it is if you’re speed is 9.9 you’re delayed in the block.
In ABS you proceed at restricted speed until you can see the next governing signal, it displays a proceed indication and you can see the track is clear to that signal.
In CTC you proceed prepared to stop at the next signal until it can be seen to display a proceed indication.
In cab signal territory you’re governed by the cab signal indication.
Rules other than GCOR may have slight differences.
Let’s just say the following hypothetical situation occured…
Road Foreman was riding an EB train away from his office/terminal. Three opposing WB trains were heading in that direction and the plan was to return on the first WB and no taxi was ordered. However, it was determined that following closely behind the first WB were two high level commitment trains (think a dark color, often associated with intermodal service on railroads). These trains were about 20 and 40 miles to the rear of the first WB. The next WB was about 140 miles out. There were other EBs moving behind the train carrying the RF.
Operations management was not willing to stop the first WB and have it run “restricted” to the next block, thus delaying the “trains of color”.
Suppose the EB stopped at a major highway and the RF dismounted the train. Would the RF have the authority to stop the train? Remember there was no taxi ordered. Meanwhile the operations folks were shifting the WBs, holding the first train in a siding 50 miles east and allowing the priority trains to proceed at a healthy gallop towards the finish line.
So we now have:
EB train stopping (yes, below 9.9 mph) but the signal was visable about “400 yards” east. This is CTC and ABS territory (if there is such a thing).
WB non priority train sitting in a siding.
Two priority trains running around first WB train.
No RF to ride the non priority train.
So, did the RF have authority to stop the train?
Did the EB run at restricted until it passed the next signal (400 yards) or could it proceed quickly at track speed? ( it was a unit commodity train) The next signal was not a control point but an advance signal for the next CP. There was a 60 mph train following the EB about 25 miles to the west.
Yes, the Road Forman, or MOP is an officer of the carrier and can stop any train he or she wishes to, even if it is to simply get off and walk to Mickey Ds for a cup of coffee.
That said, the same MOP or road forman better have a lot of pull in the office to do such a thing, but given that it was general knowledge he was riding, and general knowledge he was going to catch a return ride, dropping him off someplace and having him stop an opposing train to catch a return ride is not out of the ordinary.
He may have been doing his normal testing for the engineer of the train he rode out on, he is required by law to observe every engineer in actual service at least once a year.
Our MOP does three or four observations in a day, then moves on to another yard and catches a few more, he gets all his observations due for that month done in a day or two.
As always, a great explanation. That pretty much sums up what seemed to be happening. There was a little drama on the scanner over this, but in fairness to the RF, no one seemed to want to make a decision other than “no taxi will be ordered”, and we cannot hold up the 2 van trains, so just keep riding east and we will take care of it when the chief (dispatcher) is available.
Now, how the RF returned to the terminal is beyond me…it was 11pm and time for bed. My guess is he had made his own arrangements rather than spend another 6 hours (at least) in trains.
If it could see the track to the next signal was clear they could take off. That is, if the last signal they passed was a proceed signal not requiring Restricted Speed. Delayed in the Block is the exception in GCOR about maintaining Restricted Speed until the leading wheels pass the next signal.
There used to be a site that maintained rule books for the lines Amtrack normally operated on. It appears unavailable, but I had saved a copy of the rule books. They aren’t current but checking through them they all have a Delayed in Block rule. Some define a speed for when you become delayed, some just say when you stop or are delayed.
CSX in ABS or CPS allows trains to proceed prepared to stop at next signal, not exceeding 40mph.
NS reads pretty close to what the GCOR says.
NORAC, says restricted speed in until the next signal can be seen, etc. No distinction between ABS or CTC territories
CNUS (Canadian National-US Region) also reads much like GCOR, except the speed they use for delayed in the block is 7 mph.
Except for GCOR, I may not have the most current book or the most current updates if the books are still in effect. All are for freight trains. Some have modifications for passenger trains. Anyone who has something more current, jump right in.
One thing I noticed, which may belong more in the thread about Dual headed signals, is that the rule books for the eastern roads still use “Home Signal.” GCOR, and some of the last pre GC
Thanks for the detail. The dispatcher had made a comment about the train having to proceed at restricted speed, but the RF said the signal was only 400 yards distant and visable.
Sounds like someone didnt want to spend all night on the railroad (and probably report back to work at 7am).
Rules are very interesting and to the non railroader can be subject to interpretation. I can certainly understand the necessity for detailed observation and compliance.
My father back in 1970 was going to testify in a trial for another railroad. His testimoney was about how long it took to stop a train with 3 loaded cars and 2 empties at 25 mph. A week before the trail, as conductor, he had a train stop that was exactly the same size, then he paced off the distance. This was 10 miles off the mainline, out in the middle of nowhere. He was fired for this unauthorized stop but insisted that as conductor he could order a running brake test or something like that. He was reinstated 6 months later and finished his 43 year career. Sometimes rule intrepretation has a lot to do with how much your boss wants to get rid of you.
Since I’ve been away from the railroad for a while (and this new enhanced “delayed in the block” stuff was not in effect when I was running, I am curious how that aspect of the rule in handles in suburban service (and I suppose Amtrak as well if it makes a station stop). Is a station stop exempt from the “delayed” provisions?
Based on what I hear and see at Utica when I’m running on our railroad down there, station stops apply as well.
The transmission from the Amtrak loco as they depart will usually be something to the effect of “Amtrak XXX departing Utica on an approach signal, delayed in block.” One can usually hear them call the next CP, which is normally clear, at which point I’d imagine they are again off to the races.
There are CPs a mile on either side of the Utica station for the interchanges with MA&N and Susquehanna. I’m assuming they’re seeing an “approach” as they near the station.
Prior to the February 1996 collision between a Eastbound MARC commuter train and the Westbound Amtrak Capitol Limited at Silver Spring, MD - scheduled station stops were not considered as being delayed in the block. Subsequent to that collision, rules were changed to make station stops be considered as being delayed in the block,
In the incident the Eastbound MARC train operated past a signal on #2 track displaying 'App
Prior to the February 1996 collision between a Eastbound MARC commuter train and the Westbound Amtrak Capitol Limited at Silver Spring, MD - scheduled station stops were not considered as being delayed in the block. Subsequent to that collision, rules were changed to make station stops be considered as being delayed in the block,
In the incident the Eastbound MARC train operated past
GCOR (at least the UP version) has an addition for Push/Pull passenger operations for delayed in the block, CTC. They can’t exceed 40 mph. Freight trains no longer have a speed restriction in CTC when delayed. Some of the other rule books I listed also mention certain applications for passenger trains. Since we were talking freight, I didn’t go there.
Except maybe Amtrak or some of the commuter railroads, the employee timetables of the freight railroads that I’ve seen no longer have passenger schedules on the subdivision page. They may have an “informational” schedule in the back of the ETT, but I’m not even sure of that anymore.
Even back in Consolidated or Uniform Code (etc) days remember the definition of CTC/TCS. To the effect that, “signal indications supercede the superiority of trains for both opposing and following movements.” In CTC even the premier flagship of a railroad’s psgr service moved only at the whim of the CTC control operator. Now there are no more schedules or superiority anywhere, CTC or not. No where is one train superior to another train by right, class or direction.
Except in one room of my basement where it still reigns supreme in N scale.