I have a large layout where I’m running both unit, freight and passenger trains. Most of my freight trains are going to come from staging and end up in staging making 3 or 4 stops along the way to pickup and drop off cars in a “local” yard. At these local yards, a local switcher will spot cars at the local industries and move other cars to the local yard to a departure track. What should I use for the through freight trains and local switchers – Waybills, Switch Lists, a combination or something else. If possible I’d like to use just switch lists, but not sure how you use for both the through freight and local switcher. For example, would the local switch list show which cars would be dropped off by the various through freight trains, which are to be picked up and at what time the through freight would be arriving.
In that operating scenario, I think that car-cards-and-waybills (CC&WB) will be much easier to manage than switchlists, which it seems would need to be re-written quite often.
What I like best about CC&WB is that they can easily be re-organized to match the changes as you switch. And they’re self-correcting.
I’ve been back and forth on this, but can say this. CC&WB works great if your operators pay attention and check the card boxes at each station/industry. In fact, I would prefer that over switchlists as it’s less work to keep current as Byron noted.
On the other hand, human nature and my operators being human mean that switchlists actually get more attention, given they’re developed based on calling out the specific car cards that need dealt with.
For trains that go from staging to staging and which stop only at certain stations to switch, a switchlist may be the better option, despite the extra labor involved.
For locals, you could still rely solely on the CC&WB to gather the cars for trains and spot cars to industry and vice versa, then make switchlists only for the through trains that do work on the way to their destination. This is a scheme I’m still working on, but has cut my paperwork consierably, while still giving some guidance to the crews.
By the way, responding to your thread title, “train orders” and CC&WB/switchlists are two completely unrelated things (on the model and the prototype). One refers to train movement and the other to individual car routing. Neither switchlists nor CC&WB tell operators what to do with their train.
To tell operators where to take their trains and what to do along the way, you need some sort of train instructions. Here’s one example:
[The above incoporates a bit of the prototype’s employee timetable and some model-specific stuff. This was used with manual switchlists for car routing and a sequence timetable for dispatching on this particular layout.]
And here’s part of that sequence timetable:
(The notes on the above are for the layout owner to guide the session. These were done for Jim Dias’ fine Western Pacific layout some years ago. [September 2001 Model Railroader, May 2000 Railmodel Journal, and July 2000 Railroad Model Craftsman])
The term “Train Orders” usually refers to a specific element of Timetable and Train Order dispatching and is yet a different thing.
Edit: Here’s another example of train instructions. These instructions tell the operators on the Kingsley Turn where to take their train and what to do along the way. This is from Rick Fortin’s amazing 4th District ATSF layout. Car routing on the layout is via car cards & waybills, dispatching is Track Warrant Control. The instructions are on a small clipboard that also has a plastic pocket to hold CC&WB, and the clip holds track warrants and other forms.
Thanks for the reply Byron. To clarify, when my through freight leaves staging, the Waybills for all the cars will accompany the train operator, then the Waybills for the cars dropped off in a yard are turned and handed to the local switching loco operator – maybe put in the local Waybill boxes at the local yard. Correct? A freight cars Waybill will show going from staging to a particular yard and then, when turned, will show the car going from the local yard to the destination industry. Correct? At the beginning of a session, there may be Waybills in the boxes at the local yard for the local switching operator to move cars from industry to the departure track and possibly cars in the yard to be moved to industries. Correct?
Am I correct that the local switching loco operator is responsible for setting out cars on the departure track in the proper order for the through trains to pick up? The through freight operator is responsible for cutting out cars to be dropped off in the local yard and for properly placing the appropriate cars from the departure track in their train. Right?
I quit using CC&WB around a year ago because I didn’t use them in my 9 1/2 years experience as a brakeman instead I turn to a simple switch list very similar to what I used.
Examples:
Mid States Grocery
S/O 1981,25150,7182-off spot 7182.
P/U 45911,60056.
American Plastics:
S/O 76990
P/U NA.
National Rubber Products.
S/O 32133,32280
P/U 34900 respot 34488.
Transload Spot 5.
S/O NA
P/U 12651.
All I really needed to know was the car number and where it went…
On most layouts, there are car card boxes for each track. The through freight operator would place the waybills for the cards being set out in the appropriate box. Then the local operator can easily find them when they are ready to move the cars, associated with track where the cars themselves are sitting.
Not usually, given the scenario you have described. In most cases, layout owners don’t want the operators to turn waybills themselves, as this leads to confusion. Instead, the waybill would show the destination town and industry. For example To: Acme Milling Station: Springfield (your local town/yard)
The through train’s instructions would tell them to set out all Springfield cars together in Springfield and on which track (the through train crew doesn’t care about the industries in your scenario). Then the local can do the final delivery based on the waybill information.
Yes.
[quote user=“Kudlor”]
Am I correct that the local switching loco operator is responsible for setting out cars on the departure track in the proper ord
Conductors used waybills – that’s who probably wrote your switchlists. The Original Poster’s layout is more complicated than a single-station small switching layout.
That’s because it’s out of context of the layout itself. Newbies to operations come up to speed very fast on the layout with a knowledgeable mentor helping out on their first couple of trips. It’s actually not that hard at all.
And on your own layout, you can start really simply just by moving a few cars in a purposeful way. Then add complexity and challenge only if it seems like fun.
The car number and destination alone doesn’t suffice for multiple operators interacting in a larger layout as the Original Poster describes. Why would you argue otherwise?
Better yet, cite some examples of multi-operator sessions that you have developed and managed on actual layouts using only car number and destination as the only paperwork. Perhaps we can all learn from your techniques.
Depending on the size/complexity of your yard, a yardmaster could/should be a separate job from the local crew too. It’s his job to interpret the waybills to determine what trains different cars should be sorted to, and see that the yard switcher gets it done. The local crew would pick up their stack of waybills from the yardmaster along with any train orders, and likely create a switchlist at that point for their own use, while waiting for clearance/brake tests/car inspection/etc.
After reading quite extensively on TT&TO operation, it’s something I’d really like to experience on a large point-to-point model RR. I hear it can be quite taxing on novice operators though…
You might want to take a look at JMRI’s OperationsPro to see how that’s done. You can pick from a number of options, including custom-formatted 3rd party options, but at it’s most basic level it really just gives you car numbers/descriptions and locations. See especially the sections on Manifests and Switch Lists.
And no, you don’t need to have your computer connected to your layout in any way to use JMRI’s OperationsPro. You don’t even need t
Seriously tho, when we’re not “racing trains” (I know, but sometimes they’re slow races), I try to get him to think about moving cars around the layout in a fun way. His favorite things to move around on the layout are trucks and livestock (cows). He also enjoys taking the diesels in for “fueling” (we don’t have a real fueling station. lol). We have no real rhyme or reason, but it’s still fun.
Kudlor, you may want to take a look at JMRI’s OperationsPro. It will easily handle all your stated requirements. You would use manifests for your through freights and switch lists for your local switchers, and you can customize how each of them looks.
And no, you do not need to be using DCC, or have JMRI connected to your layout in any way, or even have the computer in the layout room. OperationsPro is completely separate from the physical layout.
You input the specifics of your layout (locations, yards/spurs/staging, routes, etc), your car roster (and optionally your loco roster), set up your preferences and options, and your trains. Then you tell OperationPro build those trains and print the paperwork.
OperationsPro is very powerful, and has great support on the JMRI list both from the developer who writes the code and from a number of users, some of whom are quite advanced.
I’m pretty familiar with Operations Pro and it absolutely does not build all the schedules, timetables and train instructions from only car number and destination. There’s a lot of other input and work needed in programming to create a multi-operator session with interactions between trains, yards, staging, etc. That’s the point. (and why there are dozens of options to program)
The output of an individual switchlist isn’t the issue. It’s also how to communicate to each operator how to do his or her job and coordinating all of the operators and all of the jobs into a satisfying session that (if desired) reflects prorotype practice.
[Parenthetically, JMRI Ops has come a very long way, but some of the folks I know running it are sometimes frustrated at not being able to reflect more prototypical interactions between trains (different levels of service, expedited trains – not just individual cars), dedicated switchers vs. more prototypical multi-town locals, etc. ]
But note that as you move trains, you must constantly update the program so it knows where the cars are located. This is one of the challenges with JMRI Ops (or any switchlist program) that can manifest itself in yards especially.
I also don’t see how ‘pre-baked’ manifests work for anything other than the trains that start the operating session in staging unless your railroad runs like clockwork, or doesn’t run on a clock at all and you just run trains sequentially. Routing cars properly around trains that don’t always run on schedule is half the puzzle, no?
Already did in my first reply…You seem to be wanting to follow the CC/WB path so,my style won’t please you even if I wrote a article for MR explaining it step by step.
CC/WB must deal with 4 sided waybills including routing…All my easy peasy methods just deals with the car’s number,JMRI’s operation Pro and a printer…The modeler will have to work out a system that suits his needs.
And yes,Progressive Rail’s Airlake operation is well suited for a ISL or could be a part of a basement size layout.
