Operations

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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I had hoped an Operations topic for the forums could be started; however, I have no idea how to get the ball rolling. I would think this to be a subject which could be helpful to those with an interest in OPERATIONS, which I think is a considerable number of people who visit these forums.

With the ease with which members of this forum seem to get into disagreements about simple things, I am hesitant to say what I feel I want to say on this topic!

However, here goes:

I have Car Cards for almost all of my freight cars and Waybills filled out for around 50 cars. My trains are relatively short, around 14 cars, as that is what fits in my sidings. I am DCC equipped; but, at this point, I can only run one train at a time as my hand held throttle is being repaired. Once that is returned, I will start running a Through Freight out on the High Iron, while attempting to run a Local Freight making deliveries. Right now, I am only running the Local, making deliveries and pick-ups.

So far, I’m finding operations to be like work! I have been a fork lift driver and also driven deliveries to customers at various times in my life and find “Operations” to be very much like that. What I’m saying is: I’m not finding operations to be all that “Fun”, so far! With the “Car Card” system, it also feel a little like 35% of the job is running trains and 65% is running “Car Cards” and “Waybills”, sort of like DC where I ran the track and not the trains!

Don’t get me wrong! I’m not giving up on operations, as I realize I have just started out in this endeavor and need to invest more time and investigate a bit further.

I realize there are other ways to “Operate”. However, maybe for me, the interest in this hobby is building models and not operating.

If there is a question in this post, it is: How many others have found out that operations did not h

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Yep - If you are going to attempt to replicate operations like a prototype then you’ll run into real situations (as much as MRRing will allow) just like the prototype did; some which were real puzzles to work out.

I’m always amazed how the guys in the interlocking towers handled some of those busy interchanges. Makes you have a greater respect and appreciation for what it takes to operate a real train. No “0-5-0” bailouts for derailed cars.

That said, I think operations would probably be more fun with more people. That would help disseminate and share some of the more “tedious” responsibilities to others so that you aren’t doing it all yourself.

Tom

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Probably right, not really a choice where I live! I did join the OpSIG, in hopes of linking up with others who “Operate” in my my locality. Did not find any. Have thought about running an ad in the local paper to see if other MRRs are in my town.

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To my mind the key to operations being “fun” is 1) having a model railroad that is well suited to operations – not just interesting and logical places to switch cars but smooth and reliable track and rolling stock not prone to derailing or stalling – as well as 2) a compatible group of people to operate with. Without some operating system or idea of some sort it is pretty tough to just “run trains” for 3 hours but it is possible to have a true operating session run 3 hours and then wonder where the time went.

To my way of thinking – and I am nowhere as advanced or as fussy as Andy Sperandeo is, as expressed in his monthly MR column or the resulting book – operations take two basic forms: the orderly running of trains and the orderly routing of loads/empties. The advanced guys sneer at the old time honored “sequential” scheduling of trains but it is an easy way to ease into the idea of the orderly running of trains. And on some prototypes it is less a matter of time than sequence for their freights.

As to the orderly routing of freight cars (passenger operations is a whole other category that I tend to lump more with the orderly running of trains), the “fun” part to my mind is in not being arbitrary but being directed what to do by a system of some sort. Again I think the idea is to ease into it. That often means removing, for the time being, a considerable number of freight cars from the layout and confining your attention to a smaller number. I think too many guys getting into operation try to keep too many cars in the system initially.

A friend of mine first got into operation using an extremely simple system - he has since moved beyond it but I continue to think it has merit and was especially easy for newcomers to understand. Each car had a card. Each card has a list of destinations and an indication of whether it was loaded or empty. And not all desti

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NP2626,

I think that tstage got it right. It would be more interesting, perhaps more fun, if you had others to work Operations with rather than as a lone wolf.

I have only recently started to mess around with Operations on my layout but, as a lone wolf, I have only limited interest in getting too serious about it. It does seem to be a lot like work. If formal Operations were a requirement of Model Railroading, I probably wouldn’t be involved in Model Railroading. It is an enjoyable element if you don’t take it too seriously, in my view. But once you start with the Car Cards and Waybills and the computer programs, well, let’s just say that is not for me.

As far as a separate forum goes, that idea sparked some immediate interest a few weeks back when some of us, you and me included, started a flurry of threads of the subject. But I quickly lost interest in a separate forum when the replies to those threads started coming in. I thought that mlehman’s participation was particularly positive and helpful, and I got a tremendous amount of help and support from another forum member off line.

But I found some of the on line comments on the forum by a few of the members to be a little smug. In retrospect, I am not at all sure that they meant to be, but some of those forum members that are knowledgeable and active in Operations seem to have little patience for Operations newbies. There seems to be a wide divide between the Operations experts and the Operations wannabees.

Rich

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I also enjoy the building and modeling a as much as, if not more than, the operations. Sometimes, I’m happy setting up a train, and running it while I “putz” with a project. Sometimes I get in the operations mood, and have a train drop of a set of cars in the siding, and then “disappear”, moving on down the line. Then the local comes out and sorts out cars, and places them where they need to be, exchanging full for empties, etc. and assembling a cut of “out-bound” cars for the next train. I have a small layout, which includes a trans-loading facilities, a large mill/bakery/food processing plant, a pulpwood siding, and a plastic injection molding plant, and a couple of “off-layout” industries that the local travels to, with tankers and gondolas, so I can “generate” about 10 to 16 cars for each “operating session”. I don’t have waybills, and paperwork for each car, as to me that seems like a lot of work. I do understand that in a club situation, with many operations and operators in progress at the same time, such paper work and operating procedures would be critical. Since it’s by myself, on my time, I operate, and run trains on my schedule,

I guess what I’m trying to say is I do operations when I feel like it, and not everytime I start up the layout, and that keeps it fun, and satisfying, and not like work.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Mike.

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Depends on the era and what you are modeling.

If you are a branch line, the conductor and the engineer would sit down (over coffee and sticky buns) and plan the day’s activities. They already know their railroad, where the switches are, which way they face and what the industries are. So they make their plan and run their train.

Beyond that “Operations” is for a group of people working a fairly large railroad, and then yes, paperwork will take up a majority of your time. Used to be the conductor sat in the caboose with his papers, and could work with them while the train was enroute from one place to another. Today the conductor rides in the locomotive, and all of his 'paperwork" is on a laptop computer. (Even the package delivery guy has a computer in his truck. So it you are modeling modern, you will want a computer in the train room.

To the LION, amoured with passenger trains as he is, operations consists of running the trains on time and making scheduled meets as necessary. That meant making a map of the railroad (the entire division, not just what was modeled) marking out distances and times, and creating string graphs to fit the trains together to meet the demands of the service. Since LION always had a large commuter operation, a train could not just appear any old time of the day, but had to get people to and from the city in a timely manner, when they wanted to go. Having made all of that, armed with a time tabl, the LION could run his trains.

LIONS are not really interested in freight trains, ok big unit trains of coal, grain and oil are nice, kinda like passenger trains with different passengers, but setting out cars up and down the line, well yes it must be done, but the LION would skip cards and stuff in favor of computerized manifests and such. Imagine that on a 1930s layout!

But the, as you know, the LION now runs subway trains, these do have a schedule, though waiting on a platform you would never know that. LION made a "

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The type of operating system you choose can make or break you. Car Cards is an inexpensive way to get into operations, but trying to sort it all out when running a train can seem like work. I am a lone wolf operator for a lot of the time, but also have a few friends over too. After I went through Car Cards and Tab on Car systems, I went with a computer program. It was harder to set up, but the computer generates a single sheet manifest that is easy to carry, tells you what cars to set out, and also what cars to pick up. Since it is random, you don’t usually see what’s coming, and that makes it more interesting for a lone operator. Also, try this link for more info on Operations if you haven’t seen it before: http://www.waynes-trains.com/site/Operations/Operations.html

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I model the transition, I feel I get enough time on the computer as it is now and have no interest in bringing a computer into the equasion, other than to keep a log of the equipment and I have generated a schmatic of the layout in MSPaint.

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What are you defining as operations and what are you doing with the car cards? What were you expecting and what isn’t meeting your expectations?

Your problem may be how you have both the train and the cards organized (or not organized as the case may be.).

What is not holding your interest?

Is it having to put specific cars at specific locations? Is it having to run certain trains at certain times or in a certain order? Is it having to keep up with the car cards? Is it because you can’t figure out what to do with the cars based on the information on the waybills when you get to a station?

I have about 120 cars on my layout. It takes me about an hour to turn waybills (about 70 cars), reblock and restage trains (about 50 cars) and apply new waybills to car cards (about 50 cars).

When I run a train, the first thing I do is check the car cards against the actual cars in the train and I order them in the standing order of the train. That takes about 2 min (or less if the yard crew is doing their job). I expect the train to be blocked, in station order if its a local. I have basically 5 stations on my

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I bet this post grows a lot.

I particularly like ops as I get bored with just running trains for no purpose. But, to have all the ops material really makes sense when you’ve got a few operators or more. Otherwise, it is a lot like work. Which real RRing is.

Also, we don’t have op sessions every week of the year, nor every month. I like to change up what area of the hobby I work in.

Richard

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LION is going to make a new mode board for his layout. Him figured out how to do train detection on the cheap together with working signals and automatic protection from rear end collisions (Unintentional-Adds in NYCT speak)

This model board will have location indication, and it will be 11" tall by 72" wide.

Click on it for a bigger display. Click again for a full size presentation.

ROAR

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I can see how you might feel that way if your job mirrors train deliveries in another form. I like to look at the puzzle or problem solving aspect of how many moves the train makes and how thing are switched as part of the fun…to others it might seem like work…

So far you are only dealing with one aspect of Ops - car routing and switching. The other aspect is train movement on the line. This generally takes more than one operator and a layout designed to make this aspect workable and fun. When the train movement aspect is included, it can shift the ratio of switching time and running time. Switching can also be tailored in a plan to take lots of time or little time depending on the car cards and number of cars in the train.

On the contrary, I tore out my old layout and built a new one designed to host op’s sessions. If you haven’t done so already, I might suggest that you attend a few sessions on an established layout with a regular crew to see how you like operations. Some people find they aren’t interested. It is a big hobby, lots of room for everyone.

Guy

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And the operations that Lion is describing is another completely different layer of operations in addition to the car forwarding layer.

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NP2626
If there is a question in this post, it is: How many others have found out that operations did not hold their interest?

For me it depends on the degree of operations.I don’t like fast clock/time table operations…I find that type of operation to hectic.

I do like the modified car card/waybill system I use…Each car card has 10 inbound waybills…Outbound is simply When empty return to (say) BN via reverse route and that is on the car card. The few outbound shipments is handle in Railbox boxcars or Railgon or another lease company gon.

I also use a odd operating style that rotates the number of cars received daily from Norfolk Southern as well as the amount of switching work and that work is base on the “day” of week…

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I thought I explained what I was finding, fairly well.

Probably not defining operation as anything, as I’m too new to it to even pretend I know anything about it.

I’ve made up car card boxes that are located where the cars will be sorted into trains, where the trains will be stored in staging, where the cars will be stored when the cars have been moved off pike and where the cars will be delivered to businesses and industries along the line.

Simply put, I was expecting operation to be more fun, than I am finding it and I find it similar to work I have done during my working career.

I would join in operation sessions if I could find any locally. My very first thought on learning how to be involved in operations was to find someone (some group) that does operation and see if I could join in. I took this quest to find people involved in operations, as far as joining the OpSIG. I have found no one, so far.

I may be one of those model railroaders who mostly likes to build models and sometime

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My findings above, bring me back to an interesting question I have raised before: It seems there are quite a few model railroaders who were/are full scale railroaders. I wonder how they could like to do what they do/did for a job, in their free time? Certainly when I was a tool & die maker, going down to my basement shop to build tools and dies would not be my idea of fun! There must be something about railroading that people find all consuming!

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Nothing wrong with that, NP2626.

As trainnut1250 remarked, it is a big hobby, lots of room for everyone.

Some guys like operations, some guys just like to run trains, some guys like to build models.

I grew up intrigued by watching trains run past my house, both steam and diesel, both freight and passenger. I never worked for a railroad, had no idea how real railroads operated, and didn’t know anybody else in the hobby.

So, to me, the fun of model railroading is building layouts, landscaping them, running trains, and occasionally trying to act out some basic operations without all of the car card and waybill hoopla.

Rich

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My questions were trying to find out what you are doing with those cards and boxes. I have something similar at my staging yards. When a train pulls into staging I put the packet of cards into the box. When it comes time to restage for the next session I pull the packet out and spend maybe 5 minutes replacing and turning waybills.

Based on my experience it takes about 10 seconds to handle the cards into staging and 5 minutes per train to restage. For me that doesn’t seem too arduous so that’s why my questions on what you are doing.

In a classification yard the cards for the inbound train or set out is put in a box for the track the cars were placed in. When I switch the track, I arrange the cards in the order of the cars in the track with the card for the car furthest from the switch engine at the top. Look at the first card, see where it goes. Put the car in that track and put the card in the corresponding box for that track. Repeat for the next car and card. Each car and card is handled once.

When the outbound train is built the cards are handled one more time if blocking is required. The outbound train is built and the cards are put into the standing order of the train.

There is a near 1:1 relationship between moving the car and moving the card. It takes way longer to move a car into a track than it does to drop a card into a box. It takes about 1-2 minutes to arrange cards in standing order, less if you put the cards into the box carefully.

Since my experience doesn’t involve that much time handling the cards, I was curious what you we

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While I do have operations to an extent, I also get much or even most enjoyment out of modeling. To be honest, I think that “operations” has been oversold as the be all and end all goal of building a model railroad. Perhaps as some have suggested if the railroad were big enough to always be building or rebuilding something and to have a decent sized group of friends operating together, then it may be a target that keeps someone modeling. But few of us have the size and time to build that monster layout, and few are also in a location where they can attract a consistent crew.

Even many of the biggest names in operations have torn down and rebuilt once their railroads reached that theoretical nirvana of being complete with nothing left to do but operate. Please understand I’m not arguing against their choice as some have misinterpreted in the past, but see that as additional evidence that operations along is not a goal. Rather, a balance between all aspects of buiding, operations, structures, equipment, etc, as best fits our individual desires, is the goal of model railroading.