On passenger trains that carried an RPO and a single express/baggage car, which would normally be right behind the locomotives or did each railroad have their own rule on this. I’ve scanned dozens of passenger trains from the 1950s and there doesn’t seem to be a hard, fast rule. It looks like the more common arrangement would be to have the baggage/express first followed by the RPO but I have looked at such a small sample size it’s not clear to me that is true.
[Deleted - Thesis not cogent]
I think the reason is neither had corridor access. RPO were isolated for security. Baggage would not need a corridor.
John,
You are correct in presuming there was no hard, fast rule on RPO placement. Most railroads made up their passenger trains to permit the simplest switching moves, en route or, at the final terminal. Most RPOs would be shifted to a postal facility while baggage would be worked at the station, so it made perfect sense not to bury the RPO behind the baggage while the baggage was being worked. Passengers did not want to wait for their baggage while the switcher set out the RPO, and then brought the baggage car back to the depot. Even if the “baggage” car in fact, was sealed and carrying storage mail, it would be against the passenger carrying cars on most trains.
I looked at the New Haven’s 1962 consist book, specifically the trains that had RPOs, which differentiates between baggage and storage mail cars and found the following: note, entire consists are not listed, the RPO is the car of interest.
Train 2- RPO, mail storage, baggage, coaches.
Train 3-RPO, baggage, coaches
Train 8-Sealed storage mail, RPO, diner.
Train 29-Deadhead baggage, sealed storage mail, RPO, parlor car.
Train 30-Baggage, RPO, baggage
Train 32-Storage mail, RPO, storage mail.
Train 58-Express, RPO, express.
Train 69-Express, RPO, baggage.
Train 60-Deadhead grill car, RPO, storage mail, baggage.
Train 66-Baggage, RPO, parlor.
Train 71-RPO, baggage.
Train 93-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 168-Baggage, RPO, combine.
Train 169-Storage mail, RPO, combine.
Train 171-RPO, baggage.
Train 174-Express, RPO, parlor.
Train 176-Baggage, 2 RPOs, storage mail.
Train 179-Storage mail, RPO, baggage.
Train 180 (M&E)-Storage mail, RPO, baggage
Train 181-Baggage, RPO, baggage.
Train 186-Express, RPO, baggage.
Train 187-Express, RPO, storage
That is an interesting collection of passenger cars. My main interest was for my secondary passenger trains which will carry an RPO and a single baggage/express car alone with a coach or two and maybe a diner. I run one train that is mainly mail and express with a single coach at the end. I place the RPO on that train in the middle of the storage mail cars. I see one train lists a diner but no passenger carrying cars so I am guessing the diner is deadheading back to its point of origin. I also find it interesting that some list only a parlor car as passenger carrying equipment. I know what these cars are but have never been sure how they were used. I had always guessed they were used an the first class passenger trains as a place for passengers to congregate but not as their primary accomodation. From the consists youu list, it appears some were used in lieu of coaches.
John,
In most cases on most roads, any baggage car ahead of the RPO would be a mail storage car. Such cars may or may not be labeled as such.
And yes, mail storage cars could be on either side or both sides of the RPO.
Passenger baggage, and REA cars would be after all of the post office controlled cars.
Yes, a train run primarily for mail would likely have mail storage cars on both side of the RPO and/or multiple RPO’s.
REA cars can and were sometimes ahead of RPO equipment depending on switching requirements at major terminals on that road. But since RPO equipment was often moved quickly to a post office siding, they were typically first.
Sheldon
By US Postal regulations, RPO’s had to be on the head end of the train.
John,
In my post, I only focused on the RPO and the cars immediately surrounding it in the consist, not the entire consist, as stated in the note. To better understand what I’m trying to convey, please go to the Alphabet Route website at www.alphabetroute.com and click on the New Haven and Hartford listing which takes you to a list of New Haven resources, where you will see a subgroup listed as equipment rosters. In this subgroup, will see a section entitled “passenger car rosters and consists” or something to that effect. The last item listed will be the 1962 consist book, from which I extracted the information I posted.
Due to the quality of the photocopying process, a lot of the train numbers and such are hard to read. Therefore, I will use page numbers for the trains I referred to:
No.2-p.8
No.3-p.9
No.8-p.11
No.29-p.15
No.30-p.16
No.32-p.16
No.56-p.20
No.69-p.23
No.60-p.21
No.66-p.22
No.71-p.23
No.93-p.29
No.168-p.36
No.169-p.36
No.171-p.37
No.174-p.39
No.176-p.40
No.176-p.41
No.179-p.43
No.180-p.44
No.181-p.45
No.186-p.47
No.187-p.48
No.191-p.49
No.197-p.49
No.199-p.49A
New Haven was the division point where cars were set out for the working of headend traffic and cars were swapped to trains heading for the appropriate destination. You will see that the consists of many trains varied according to the days of the week. The train you saw on Monday might look nothing like the train you saw on Friday or Sunday. Not all trains ran everyday and, the consist that ran between two cities one day, might turn for different cities the next, or cover a different schedule. To spend a week-day in New Haven would definitely w
John,
Remembering your road’s connection with the Pennsy, I highly recommend you get a copy of the book “Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains, Consists and Cars” that I referenced in your post about interline trains. Amazon has a few copies and although it costs about $40, you won’t regret the money well-spent.
I have imagined that both the NYC and Pennsy are major shareholders in my railroad and it has working arrangements with both, but the NYC is the big dog. Both have trackage rights over parts of my railroad but there is far more NYC traffic. When I planned the railroad, it was going to be completely independent and just interchange with the bigger railroads but soon after I began construction, there was a lot of great NYC equipment coming on the market so I rewrote the narrative and made the NYC a parent of my railroad with traffic rights. Later, I picked up some nice Pennsy equipment at an estate sale and so I made them a minor shareholder as well with a couple joint passenger trains operating over the line and interchange with the Pennsy represented by a track in my east end staging yard.
If I remember right, 1956 which is the year my railroad is set was the year the two giants first began discussing the possibility of a merger. I further imagine that my railroad eventually became part of the Penn Central merger although I doubt I will ever move my timeframe forward.
Somewhere in my boxes of railroad books I have a complete history of the Pennsy from inception through the Conrail days. I think it was published before the break up of Conrail. I don’t think it is the title you mentioned.
No, it isn’t. The book I suggested is written by a fellow by the name of Steigmeier (?) and covers the east-west blue ribbon fleet of passenger trains such as the Broadway Limited, the General, etc, between New York and Chicago as well as St. Louis. Interline trains such as the Penn Texas are also included. Not only does it give consists somewhat similar to the NH, it also illustrates the cars, photographically in black and white, as well as color, in 1952. Nothing Penn Central or Conrail!
Your scenario reads like the Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac which took Florida bound trains of the Atlantic Coast Line and, Seaboard Air Line from the PRR in Washington and handed them over to their owners in Richmond VA. A passenger train bridge line.
If a railroad had enough mail to warrant a separate mail / express train, it would often have open baggage cars with mail on either side of the RPO, so the clerks in the RPO could access additional sacks of mail to sort en route.
Quite possible, but unusual. Normally a railroad tried to have a diner work both directions - a diner would be on a train going west in the evening to serve dinner, then would be taken off late at night, restocked, and then cut into an eastbound train in the wee hours of the morning to serve breakfast.
A parlor car was in effect a first-class coach. It was often used on trains that ran in the day, so did not have the usual first class (sleeping car) patrons. It wasn’t like a lounge where people wandered in and out, people had their own cushy seats, sometimes seats that swiveled. Not sure why a mail train would have a parlor car, unless it was deadheading?
Generally, only one train on any given route would carry express and/or mail. Either it would be a dedicated train (which wou
My railroad has a main trunk line but major branches to other cities. The mail train operates on the main trunk. The secondary passenger trains serve the branchline cities and that’s why they have their own RPOs.
I’ve read that RPO’s were generally discontinued in the mid-late 1960’s. I’ve noticed that RPO HO models are often painted in Amtrak schemes. Did RPO’s actually run during Amtrak era?
Most mail is transported by air now. Question is when did this take over from rail?
The very last run, of the last remaining RPO route between NYC and Washington DC, was on June 30, 1977.
Amtrak was created in 1971. Not sure if any RPO cars were actually repainted for Amtrak.
Sheldon
There were a handful baggage/RPOs that Amtrak inherited from Southern that were in Amtrak colors and served into the 90s.
It is my understanding that the few pure RPOs that served on the NEC in the 70s never lost their PC paint.
Most railroad mail contracts were cancelled c.1968 IIRC. A lot of the reason Amtrak happened was the railroads had many passenger lines that had been breaking even (or at least only losing a small amount) with the mail contracts. Once those contracts ended the railroads found that they were losing money hand over fist. The railroads then basically begged the government to take the passenger trains away from them, which happened in 1971.
I remember seeing a mail train on Amtrak’s NEC in Connecticut in 1989. I don’t remember if it had RPO, or was just mail storage cars. It lasted into the millenium.
The post office continued to use mail storage cars to move bulk partly sorted mail, and AMTRAK had a number of such cars.
But no onboard mail sorting after June 30, 1977.
Sheldon