Original thought!

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Have we lost our abilities to think and act for ourselves? I see ideas contemplated here and at other modeling forums where it seems that someone has an idea; but, instead of carrying the idea through to see if it works; or, fails, we ask others whether they have ever tried such an idea. Is the thought of possible failure so repugnant that we no longer attempt to do things on our own? What happened to the natural curiosity we had in our youths?

I understand that it is so easy to ask about our ideas here on these forums. However, innovation always carries some risk of failure; but, I think a risk free world is a pretty boring place!

You have an idea? Carry it through to success; or, failure on your own! If your embarrassed about your failures, then only tell us about your successes! Isn’t this supposed to be a hobby, after all? Certainly, if there is potentially substantial monetary loss then ask, but, come on, some of these simple ideas are worth the effort of attempting without someone else’s input.

2

have you seen Darth Sante Fe’s projects? Those are really impressive.

3

Money is tight for discretionary spending these years, so a wise person seeks advice and help before he commits to risky ventures and projects. At worst it couldn’t hurt. At best, he averts a profound disappointment and regret.

When the emotional stakes and investment are less, most of us, if we are curious, will experiment.

4

Don´t they say only fools rush in?

Why not capitalize on the experience others have made? I see no wrong in that!

5

There is a huge difference, IMO, to just askign for a complete solution compared to asking advice before attempting a solution on your own.

Just read an article today that mentioned how the other day, when it was announced that ROdney King died, peopel on Twitter were suddenly asking “who is Rodney King”. Point of the article was mainly to show the generation gap, but had these people simply typed that in Google instad of on Twitter, they would have had their answer. In the time it took them to type it on Twitter and broadcast their lack of knowledge to the world, they could have had the answer.

That is not the same thing to me, as asking on a forum such as this, “what is the best way to do x” For example, look at how many different kinds of roadbed there are. Each has its pluses and minuses, and we all have our favorites. Someone starting a layout is very wise to ask what peopel prefer for roadbed, and then digest the answers and determine which one is best for them. Sure beats layoing in a supply of hundreds of dolalrs of one kind only to find somewhere along the line, somethign they were plannign to do isn’t suited to their choise of roadbed, and now theyhave to rip it out and buy somethign else. That kind of mistake gets expensive real quick.

–Randy

6

Gidday, Apart from a few geniuses i would suggest that throughout history there has been very little original innovation with out dialogue between like minded persons.

Re: The Wright Brothers just didn’t decide one day to go to Kittyhawk one day and go for a fly. They were extremely meticulous in their research and had there been an interweb forum relating to flight back in 1903 I suspect they would have been active on it.

To me there is nothing wrong with the interchange of ideas, conducted with civility and an open mind, such an interchange can lead to even greater innovation.

I personally see no point in re-inventing the wheel, it is a waste of time, however am not against persons seeking new ways to make it run more efficiently .

While this is a hobby, I afraid that I’ve had it drummed into me through work, “If in doubt ask” and “The only silly question is the one asked after the accident.” Owning up to a mistake was also drummed into me, so I don’t have any problem admitting if I make one on this forum.

However I also don’t believe in just blindly following on regardless , besides aren’t we supposed question things but also be prepared to learn from our mistakes ?? [banghead] [banghead]

Just my two bobs worth.

Cheers,the Bear.

7

As they say, there is nothing new under the sun.

More than likely, someone else has already screwed it up before you. If they have, maybe they will tell you how to NOT screw it up.[:D]

8

I don’t mind people asking questions. I attempt to answer many of them when I have some knowledge that is pertient.

I am, however, bothered when people ask for the “best” way to do something. There may be one or several right ways but there are many more wrong ways. Asking questions can keep one from making costly or even dangerous mistakes. The answers also help others who have similar questions.

People must also evaluate the answers in light of their own abilities and knowledge. I have seen great results using techniques and/or materials that don’t work for me. On the other hand I can often get similar results using other methods.

.

9

Welcome to the wonderful world of paralysis through analysis. I have seen posters here who obviously wanted their decisions `blessed’ by the forums BEFORE they ever did anything. More and more detailed questions about (fillintheblank) - followed by silence. If (fillintheblank) ever got done, or even started, it’s completely below the radar.

I hesitate to think how many times I have posted the simple suggestion that the inquiring mind build a test section/spiral/grade and find out for themselves whether their rolling stock can do whatever likely (or unlikely) task they’ve set. I can count the answers on the fingers of one hand and still have four to scratch my ear.

We can only learn from mistakes if we allow ourselves to make mistakes. Most Americans today have been brainwashed by the technologically challenged media pundits into believing that there is something inherently wrong with the person who doesn’t achieve perfection right out of the starting blocks - almost as if a first grader should be expected to write and defend a master’s thesis by recess time. WHY??? Because they, and their out-of-office political cronies, equate anything short of total success as, Waste of taxpayer money - even when the taxpayers haven’t put up a cent! No wonder so many people are afraid to venture into new territory.

Back during the McNamara era the stone tablet from SecDef trumpeted something called Zero Defects, a theory that every mechanical action should result in perfection. As a line mechanic working with real aircraft, I had always made sure that my work met spec and didn’t fail due to faulty workmanship on my part. But, ZERO defects? If we had insisted that all of our planes would be kept on the ground until every known minor discrepancy had been cleared the only birds in the sky would have been wearing feathers.

One final thought.

10

Why would I want to do something that dose not work, seems like a waste of time to me. I like learning from others mistakes. There is plenty of time to experiment if the need arises. I had to do that with a mountain I wanted but had to be very lightweight but wanted the surface to be plaster.

11

Hi all

What ever we want to do on our railways has been done before.

More than likely by one of the legends or by one of the to be legends of the hobby.

So some one will know how to do it having found that out it is then just a case of adapt it to modern technology and materials.

The thing that gets me is that the model is being taken out of model railroad there is just to much plonk and play stuff out there now .

I am no expert but I do like assembling kits and having a go rather badly at scratch building some things.

As has been stated the available cash for the hobby is not what it once was and materials are in real terms more expensive than they once where.

So I think people are now far more reluctant to take risks at wasting the precious hobby cash.

Its not just a US problem its world wide

regards John

12

WHy would you want a failure to happen when you can learn from other’s successes??

you say “You have an idea? Carry it through to success; or, failure on your own!” You may NOT get a success right away.

I will give you an example: I really. really do not want to fly in an airplane that hasn’t been tested for success!!! Basic flying principles may be there, but new designs may NOT work. Nor do I want to build MY idea of a “perfect plane” WITHOUT reading up on what others have tried and failed at to MAKE SURE I don’t make the same mistakes!!!

Nor do I want a Doctor to go blindly into an operation on me unless he has SOME IDEA of what he is doing!!!

The GREAT thing about this forum and others like it is that we can exchange ideas that will lead to success!

Magazines in the past taught of scratch building RR equipment and buildings for your layout, would following them to success be anything less than trying to scratch building something in your head? I think NOT.

[8-|]

13

This thread bothers me. I get the impression from the OP that if I meerly build on others ideas I am some sort of mindless automoton. He seems to suggest that if we do not charge blindly into something then we are not thinking for ourselves.

I accept his caveat that when there are major dollars involved then seeking advice is a good idea. Why should it be any different for smaller projects? Why should I waste my time repeating mistakes that have already been made when the information needed to avoid those mistakes is readily available? How many LEDs do I burn out before I discover the right resistor on my own instead of using readily available advice?

What’s the point? I can be stupid enough on my own without making a deliberate attempt to be so!

Dave[:-^]

14

I am not a fan of walking up the path others have paved yet if I didn’t I wouldn’t know it was there and could be paving a highway right next to a highway that already exists. Unless of course this highway has an overtaking lane and fuel stops with drive through food outlets. Instead of working on the original idea and improving design, it is left to fail while everyone else goes for the better thought out route.

Notice we don’t really have to drive anymore though. We have the choice to fly or rail.

If you don’t know what others have achieved then you risk achieving nothing new. Why reinvent the wheel when you can improve on a similar idea?

I am happy to risk criticism to find success. [2c]

In this case we are modeling railroads. I don’t see us all going different direction. It is a common interest or we would not be here.

15

Chris!

Well said!

Dave

16

Actually I still forge ahead and buy without finding the need to ask others opinions.

At 64 if I can’t make a (if you will permit) man’s decision on my own then I better do some soul searching since I made such decisions long before the Internet forums came along.

I read online reviews with salt-some times a lot of salt since a lot of reviews is based on one’s modeling style and needless to say I pay no heed to those “I won’t buy one because yada,yada and more yada” replies that always crops up in those review topics.

Now I find you tube a valuable tool as far as checking various sound decoders…That’s how I decided on a Tsunami decoder for my SW1500 since the sound was spot on when checked against a prototype SW1500.

17

So what is being said here is to ask for opinions about doing something and the NuBe receives 10 replies all suggesting how to do what he had ask.

Now all 10 of these replies all relate to the original question but vary widely in the method of SUPPOSEDLY accomplishing the project.

The NUBE selects one of the methods and it does NOT work (for him) due to not enough information or description of exactly how the poster had done it due to leaving out some minor part (not necessary on purpose) but something we all take for granted - yet is a very necessary part of the process.

Now that person has wasted time in trying to follow someones process and it failed due to a left out part.

Does that turn off the OP from ever trying to use the help suggested on the forum ?

It goes back to read everything you can and search the WEB for similar projects to see how they have done it.

BUT

Every layout is different and trying to do exactly as others have done something will NOT always work for you.

I have helped out a lot of modelers in my area over the years and what works great for me fails miserably for someone else.

What I am trying to state here - the replies given on the forums are ONLY SUGGESTIONS - NOT GOSPEL !

They are to give you an idea on how to start - YOU have to be willing to look your situation over and make adjustments as YOU go along!

If you don’t - YOU are going to become frustrated with this HOBBY!

Model Railroading is a personal HOBBY - Everyone does things a different way YET we end up with a model railroad that is uniquely yours!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

18

No. He is seemingly suggesting that you often learn more from trying something than you do from being afraid of trying things on your own.

If we try something we learn something - either that our approach worked, that it worked partially, or that it didn’t work. Next time we know more. If we don’t try things, time passes, and we have learned nothing.

For big cost items it certainly makes sense to ask opinions before leaping. For smaller stuff, where all we risk is a little time and efford and minimal amounts of money, it is often better to just try things than it is to not try.

Say putting together a track plan using sectional track when we have a track plan, have a list of track, and have bought that track, but we are uncertain about which is which of the track pieces compared to the plan. Just lay it out and try it. If we get it wrong, move a couple of pieces and try again.

Uncertain about what color to use for the ground on our layout? Grab some paint, paint a test section. Look okay? That’s the color. Not so good? Try another color and paint over.

Want to build a swing gate across a door? Just try it. Either our gate will work, or it won’t. If it works, we know how to build functional swing gates. If not, modify and try again.

Uncertain about whether we have enough track power feeders? Try to run trains. If DCC, short the track by placing a quarter across the track. If it works, it work. If not, add more feeders.

Want to build a mountain or a street? Try stuff. It either works (fully or partially), or it doesn’t work. D

19

In fairness to the OP, I don’t believe he meant to suggest we should ignore what others have learned. But there is a subtle tone in many of the questions asked on this forum that the “correct” answer shall or should be forthcoming. Just blindly follow the advice, and all will be well.

As a perpetual student of life (and model railroading), blindly following a method or process without a thorough understanding rubs me wrong. Just my personality. I want to know why some methods are better than others, and why some “failed”. That’s the curiousity I believe the OP was talking about.

I also find that much remains to be discovered within the hobby. Some examples:

  • We have fairly well understood and accepted guidelines for curve radius vs equipment being used based on experience and experiments. We do not have the same for vertical transitions.
  • We do not have accepted guidelines on how much grades and curves affect maximum train length.
  • I do not see a generally accepted way to achieve lightweight scenery using a foam base. Putting heavy plaster over foam sort of defeats some of the reason for the foam base.
  • Introducing changing elevations (and grades) into modular layouts in a manner that can be accepted by participants.
  • A remote uncoupling/coupling system that does not need as much critical pre-planning or expense in locating uncoupling devices. The impact on layout design and scenic detailing of “just use skewers” has not really been addressed well, either.
  • Engineering a consistently good drive mechanism for steamers - especially very small steam locomotives. These are done on a case by case basis. Almost all HO and N diesel drives use very similar basic mechanisms because it works well at a reasonable price.

These are examples that are going to be require more experimentation to come up with “conventional wisdom”

20

As in all things, there is room for a balanced approach. When a modeler experiences what seems to be a roadblock, he can come here and quickly get some help. Alternatively, when a person wants to solve a problem without asking, he is likely to try at least one experiment, and possibly modify that experiment to get success if the first method doesn’t go well.

In my own case, I had never read about ways to get semi-opaque fake water. I had no idea how to achieve the look, but I thought of making it milky some way. After a second or two of internal brain-storming, my mind settled on trying a pinch of plaster of Paris powder mixed in with the epoxy. It worked.

Balance.