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Classic Trains General Discussion
3821

Well good morning gents-Its bright & early at this end of the counter-well,early anyway ! Thought Id better check that all is ready for the morning shift.
Coffee is fresh made,Tea on request,the Mentor Bakery pastries are due in any time now.
We have a couple of Early Bird specials to keep out the chill:-
Short stack with syrup & crispy bacon on the side,
Club sandwiches,
Leek & potato soup,
Full English (for the track gangs & anybody else on outside work )

Daily Wisdom:- The more I learn,the more I realise how little I know…

Well I shall be in and out today ( multi tasking in the modern parlance ) but Anne & Lucy have kindly agreed to spell me for the intervals,Cindy would normally be here but today is her Ju-Jitsu black belt exam,so naturally we could not ( dare not ) impose [^]
O.K-Things to do,back in a few hours-be nice to the girls or Boris will follow you home one night…P.S-dont feed the dillo !!!
have a good one,nick[C=:-)]

3822

WE BROUGHT THE NYC TO ITS KNEES
How Notre Dame students beat a railroad at its own game
By Joseph MacDonald

During the years 1932-36, I played in the Notre Dame University band, using a trombone I had bought with my earnings as a messenger in the offices of the Central Vermont Railway. The band made two trips to away football games each year; these were medium-length trips, to Cleveland or Pittsburgh or Chicago. We wanted badly to go to New York for the Army game in Yankee Stadium, and in fall 1935 we finally accumulated enough money to go, provided we could get a low enough train fare. It was my senior year, and my last chance
I was vice president of the band, and was delegated to negotiate for a reduced fare with the railroads serving South Bend, Ind. My first stop was the ticket window of the New York Central, where I asked to see a passenger agent. A haughty man came to the window: “What can I do for you, son?”
“I’d like to inquire about a special low fare for the Notre Dame band to go to New York City weekend after next.”
“We have no special fares,” he replied.
“But it’s for the Notre Dame band,” I said.
“I don’t care who you are.” “But there are 100 of us.”
“I don’t care how many of you there are,” he said. “We have no special fares. The fare is twice the one-way fare less 10 percent, $64 round trip, coach. And if you want to go, you’d better tell us which train you want to go on, so we put a couple of extra coaches on for you.”
“But why don’t you have special fares?”
“Why should we?” he said. “We have the only railroad here.”
“You do not have the only railroad here,” I reminded him.
"Well, if you want to take the Pennsy’s branch train down to Plymouth, and stand on the platform for a couple of hours, and crowd into their train, you’re welcome to do so. And if you want to take the Grand Trunk Western here, and take a couple of days to get there, y

3823


WEDNESDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

We open at 6 AM, all time zones. (Don’t ask how we do that!) [swg]

I’m gone for most of the day, will be back well into the night. Nick – Rob and Ted said they’d keep things movin’ and Cindy has the bar! Remember – greet the bartender, order a drink, and keep those Posts comin’!

Draw a cuppa “Joe,” some pastries from The Mentor Village Bakery and whatever breakfast specials await you this fine day! [swg]

Daily Wisdom:

Nerves is just which end of a six-gun you happen to be looking at.

Info for the Day:

(1) CONTEST:
What date (time optional) will ”Our” Place reach the next plateau – page 200 [?] BONUS question: WHO will be the one to “turn the page” [?]

Participants . . . . . . Date chosen . . . . (Bonus) Who will put us over the top [?]
(in order of participation)
pwolfe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dec 20th . . . . . . . . . .siberianmo Tom
trolleyboy Rob . . . . . . . . . Dec 18th (12:05 PM) . siberianmo Tom
coalminer3 CM3 . . . . . . . .Dec 18th. . . . . . . . . . siberianmo Tom
barndad Doug . . . . . . . . . Dec 22nd . . . . . . . . . none
nickinwestwales Nick . . . .Dec 27th . . . . . . . . . .trolleyboy Rob
ftwNSengineer P . . . . . . . Dec 23rd . . . . . . . . . .trolleyboy Rob
jlampke John . . . . . . . . . Dec 24th

3824

G’day All!

PASSENGER TRAIN NOSTALGIA #43

Here’s something to enjoy regarding the Santa Fe (AT&SF) from a 1949 advertisement in my personal collection.

always “at Ease” on El Capitan

Easy dress * Easy Comfort * Easy cost

”Come as your are!” on this famous Santa Fe
all-chair streamliner. Just 39 ¾ easy hors
between Chicago and California. Restful
club lounge car “just for fun!” Fred Harvey meals . . .
Coach fare plus a small extra fare . . .
Same route as The Chief
And Super Chief.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)][oX)]

CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!

3825

Good mornin Breakfast Clubbers. Hi Cindy, hey “lookin’ good” with that shiny Black Belt around your midriff.[:-^] Of all days to have a bevy of downloads and “up dates” from MSN and Windows, they picked this morning.[:(!] Looks like the Proprietor will be out most of the day. I’ll do my humble best to keep the “home fires burning” while
Tom is “on the road.”[:D] Yesterday, was a veritable bonanza of posts, so I kept a “low profile.” When I saw the sheer volume, greatly inhanced by our own Rob’s contributions, well, it was obvious I would just be “in the way.” So today, let me just start by saying “this joint is jumping.”

There were so many fine comments, articles, essays, data sheets and plain old “juicy gossip” that I don’t no where to begin this frosty mornin. If I may be excused for a short recap of everything that “hit the fan,” I will be more able to get this day rolling along “on track.” So Cindy, I’ll take Boris for his constitutional trot around the premisis and tether him by the shed. Then I’ll return fore armed with some, hopefully, bits and pieces to share. Tom has already started the day of on the “right foot” and we don’t want to let the momentum sag, do we? Okay, back in a “mo” with some ‘mo.’ See ya’s soon.

3826

Well,it looks like my alarm call post earlier slipped through the seams,no matter,SIR MANAGER THEODORE has things well in hand,as ever.
MIKE-Hi,nice to see the Notre Dame piece getting the wider audience it deserves (Although why Kalmbach require permission to use material on their own forum is a point of copyright law too fine for this simple soul…)
Another evocative piece from DOUG-the notion that folks from miles around would come and have picnics around the wreck site tells us more than we need to know about human nature,I guess nothing brings us together more quickly than something unpleasant happening to someone else.
So this wreck was caused by the lead loco splitting the switch-dont you guys have facing point locking systems?–I cant think of a line over here that doesnt have em on all running lines,usually with signals also locked in-Indeed facing point are avoided wherever possible over here,leading to quite distinctive station and yard formations.
ROB-another welcome shot of steam & hot oil from north of the 49 [tup]
Well,thats my dinner break over,back in a bit,be good,nick[C=:-)]

3827

Hi again Members and guests. Cindy, I done figured out the only way for me to get “current,” is to start with where I left off. HUH[banghead] Sooo, waneswheel, I got a “kick” out of the personal touch the engineer used the loco whistle to communicate with folks along the RTW. We had a SW-7 that shifted wares back and forth about a block from my home in Tulsa, OK (Frisco). He too would add his “signature” toot when he saw a familiar face.[tup] Barndad that was a great “inclusive” post (‘cept for the [redCherry Coke[/red]). And the R.P.O. piece brought back a recollection of when I was pacing the platform in K.C. Mo. waiting for Grams arrival. I eventually waltzed my way up near the R.P.O. of a standing Santa Fe passenger consist. How was I to know they were unloading mail bags from a Brinks pick-up some where up-the-line?[#oops] The photo of that postal worker’s badge brought the whole incident back to mind[:O] Wow, did I get “the bums rush” or what?[8] I was surprised that the “rail mail” ran as late as 1977, thanks. Nick sure glad you were “on top of things” this A.M. Ahhh, Anne, Lucy and Cindy and moi,Tom sure knows how to handle “fringe benifits.” I’ll need Lucy’s help upstairs in the bath tub counting yesterday’s “take.” We will only be a moment.[^] BTW, the “Full English” was incredible. On the menu it should be listed "General Cornwallis’ Revenge." Gang, I’ll be “back in a flash with a flash.” Keep them “doggies rollin’, rawhide.”

3828

Good Morning Tom and the rest of the gang. Just time for coffee and a diet pastry from the Mentor Bakery.

Off to the VA for check-up today. Don’t know how that works elsewhere but here it can be one full day and possibly even two.

PASSENGERFAN AL’S STREAMLINER CORNER #27

COMET NYNH&H June 5, 1935 Prividence - Boston five round trips daily 44 miles each way 44 minute schedule.

Another manufacturer more noted for tires and airships was the Goodyear-Zeppelin Company who constructed an Aluminum skinned tubular steel framed three car articulated lightweight bi-directional diesel powered streamlined train.

This train named the COMET was built for the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad.

The COMET was painted a striking Blue and white the only equipment so painted on the railroad.

The three car articulated train was purchased with a control cab at each end so it was unnecessary to turn the train at terminals.
The COMET with revenue seating for 160 passengers entered service June 5, 1935 betweeen Providence, Rhode Island and Boston, Massachusetts a distance of 44 miles and was scheduled to operate five round trips daily in 44 minutes each way. The three car articulated COMET was powered by a pair of Westinghouse 400 HP diesels one located in each end cab unit. The two power units were numbered 9200 and 9202 with the center articulated car numbered 9201.
The COMET operated on the same route from delivery until the mid 1950’s when it was retired and scrapped.

CONSIST

9200 Articulated 400 HP Power Cab with 48-Revenue Coach Seats
9201 Articiulated 64-Revenue Seat Coach
9201 Articulated 400 HP Power Cab with 48-Revenue Coach Seats

TTFN AL

3829

Good Morning Barkeep and all: coffee, please, round for the house and $ for the Mighty Wirlitzer.

Wonderful reading material this a.m.

We had several family frtiends who worked in the RMS. There was a lot of memory work involved in this service, and, IIRC, clerks had to pass tests for the routes they covered.

I well remember the last RPOs in service between Washington and New York. I used to see them a lot in the evenings at Baltimore. Tom, these were filthy old PRR RPO cars, some still in red others in the green of the road that shall not be mentioned. At any rate, red or green, they had a fascination. The lights inside were quite dim and I wonder how anybody could see to sort the mail. RPO personnel who handled registered mail carried sidearms.

I loved the line. “we’ve always had trouble with the New York Central.”

The El Cap was one of my grandmother’s favorite trains when she made periodic forays to the west. It’s not that she couldn’t afford to ride another train, she just thoproughly enjoyed the Cap’s ambience, passengers, etc. I never heard her say a bad word about Uncle John’s road.

Now as for the Comet.

As most visitors to this fine establishment know, my New Haven roots go very deep; so here’s true story abt. the Comet

My paternal grandfather (in addition to many other life experiences) at one time operated a restaurant in the section of Rhode Island that is known as “South County.” There were, of course, more than few New Haven folks who dined there.

Among the group were two brothers, George and Al Bernard, who were engineers on the New Haven. They handled the “Comet” fairly regularly. The “Comet” was viewed as a good run; not neceassarily as august as say the “Yankee Clipper” or the “Marchants,” but a good run, nevertheless.

My dad as he told me sort of “hinted around,” and one afternoon, in about 1936 or so, he found himself with George Bernard

3830

Cindy, it’s me and Lucy back again. The Till came out “on the money.”[tup] Mornin Mike, I enjoyed the Article as much on the rebound as on the first reading. What a perfect “Squelch” for the N.Y.C. Potentates![tup] Somehow I knew your Dad had to be a trombone player.[swg] Passengerfan Al, some where, some how, I do recall seeing the New Haven 9200, probably in an old M.R., not sure. 60 m.p.h. isn’t a bad averaqe between the two cities. If anyone has ever driven the route, you can appreciate the time savings involved.

“Streamliner Corner” has become a mainstay hereabouts and I, for one, can attest to the many controversies your Topic has resolved, just love it.[tup] Nick is sooo right regarding the “rubber necking” that some folks delight in scrutinizing disaster sites. FLASH, I just heard a reservoir has been breached in S.E. MO. with a 20 ft. high wall of water surging through the lowlands. Thank goodness all our MO Members are no where near the area. Is that ironic Nick? Okay. wehre was I? Oh yes, R.R. safety practices in the States are notoriously slipshod. Especially in the earlier days when poor underlayment, bad ballast, cross ties and faulty steel was used in the name of “keeping costs down.” Even today we see it in the N.E. Corridor and around the Chicago area where high speed trains operate over dozens of grade crossings, simply insane, no? BTW, Nick and Pete have mentioned the U.K. avoiding (where possible) facing point turnouts which cleared up the questions I’ve had for years. At a closer look of some of the yard configurations near Connoly, Heuston and Belfast Stations in Irealand, I was at a loss for their reason for the seemingly awkward and wasteful use of land. Now I know the rational.[^] Duh, makes sense to me. Okay Boris, Ill be “in and out” today, so you won’t need to CLANG…mother told me there would be days like this.[:(!]

3831

Well,happy is the day that has me back indoors before 3.pm (local)-and on price-work too[^]-SIR THEODORE-knew I could rely on you-[swg],CornwallisRevenge it is [^][^]. You are a braver soul than I -exercising Boris on rubbish collection day is a risk fraught activity,he always seems so pleased with his littlefinds-I suppose we should regard it as re-cycling of sorts.... AL & CM3,good to see the top of the day crew in fine fettle-CM3,the house thanks you for the round,as always Al-if the doc pulls on surgical gloves and asks the nurse to step outside,hit the floor running. Nice stuff on the Comet,one doesnt associate short consists with your side of the pond. I love the corporate logic that dictated that so many people wanted to use it that they replaced it.
Now one of you two used the phrase future ex-wiferecently-Jimmy Vaughn & the Fabulous Thunderbirds ??-or was it next ex-wife,I guess that scans better for a lyric…ho hum.
Well,lets spin some toons on the old Wurlitzer and slope off to collect the small demon from school-Steve Earles Copperhead Road to blow off the dust,Dead Flowers by the Stones,Misguided Angel by the Cowboy Junkies,Diamond Mine by Blue Rodeo And Night Nurse by Gregory Isaacs for a touch of Island sunshine. Right Boris-go clean shed,sweep yard, put out empties,change the dillo dirt box-Then wa***wice.!!!
be lucky guys,later,nick[C=:-)]

3832

WHOA, looks like the “bottom dropped out.” Well, with the deluge of posts yesterday, I guess it isn’t really surprising. Hey CM3, I totally agree with your Grandmother’s assessment of the El Capitan. I rode El Cap a couple of times Chicago to K.C., MO and and had a lot more fun than on the Super Chief. It was a different crowd altogether. While a staid, consevative atmosphere is appreciated, it “ain’t much fun.” The El Cap passengers and crew seemed to be enjoying the trip moreso than arriving at the destination; my kind of folks for sure.[tup] Of course, those beautiful hi-level cars and friendly staff made a difference as well. WOW, does anyone have a photo of the New Haven Comet? I’ve been rustling through my archives but so far, ZIP.

As Nick pointed out (if I may paraphrase), R.R.'s in the States really never pursued short passenger consists for long (sounds like a oxymoron, doesn’t it?). Sure, I “get it” as far as the long hauls and tying-up the same miles of RTW for fewer paid fares but wouldn’t it be nice to see just one or two really “special” articulated trains available even for extra fares? “Whipping a dead horse?” Yep, “you can say that again,” but please don’t! Cindy, a round for the house will come to about $6.00 today, unless Nick is imbibing in French Champagne…[thinks all us Yanks are rich, don’t cha know]. When I said “back in a flash with a flash,” I had no idea it would be “for real.” Thankfully, there have been no reported fatalities in MO.

Gents the sandwich board is open and Tom makes sure the cold cuts are fresh daily and the breads are “out of the oven,” so what’s your pleasure? Earlydiesels Dan, I haven’t recieved a reply to my Western Union wire on the “B&O in the Civil War” book. I’m keenly intrested in obatining a copy, if it’s still “Out there.”[^] BTW, if I’m not mistaken, this is “Pike Perspectives Day” 'round these parts. Mike, John, Don, if you haven’t had a chance to take a ride

3833

Just back from school play -under strict orders to upload pix of little horror for her dear mother,back A.S.A.P,[C=:-)]

3834

There can’t be much doubt as to which of the two, “feast or faimine,” we face today, can threre? Hi Cindy, Ruthy, Lucy and Nick, Think I’ll have a early P.M. C.R. and soda w/lime twist. Well, if most folks are doing their card writing and Christmas shopping, as I should be, its understandable. CM3, good of you to say hello this fine Wednesday. It must’ve been a great experience for your Father to ride in the Comet’s cab back in “the days.” I don’t know if anyone is “into” videos of cab view rail trips that are available. I have a couple and there isn’t anything I would rather do. This is “old hat” to P earlydiesels, barndad Doug, and some other Members. But for many of us it is a rare, if ever made, experience.[V] Even with “surround sound” and plenty of decibels, the T.V. in a living room isn’t even close. On the other hand, would most of us really want to be in the cab of say an 0-6-0 shifter on a freezing night with the roasting hot back fire wall on one side and sub Arctic winds blowing on the other? Proabaly not! It is sooo different between when you “must” and when you “wish,” isn’t it? Since this is a great day for Solitary, perhaps I may be allowed a few visions that would normally be so far [#offtopic] that I would be ceremoniously “drummed” unto Kodiak Island, Alaska.[:0] Looking back is really a preoccupation with most of us. I’m wondering what the future may hold for us “rail gypsies” (at heart), say in the next 2 decades? We see a lot of “light rail” options coming into fruition all over North America. The U.K. and Europe are, of course, “past masters” of this vital link in passenger transport over the past Century. Now, with N.A. airports being pressed ever harder with commuter and “short hops,” and freeway traffic from those airports to urban areas practically in “grid lock,” what must be the alternatives? Scuuuze me but some form of independent rail movement seems the only choice. Monorails and subways are terribly

3835

Right,thats that little job taken care of, O.K. SIR MANAGER THEODORE looks like its thee & me for now,lets us take our ease at the bar and discuss lofty matters of great import-failing that we could always tie one on,swap dirty gags & generally shoot the s**t.[swg].
Your mention of the reservoir breach and the long arm of coincidence reminds me that Britains 6th largest fuel store blew up on sunday morning ( It may have made the press over there ) by a miracle,no fatals & only minor walking wounded although a large part of S.E.England now under a thick black cloud–Could this be chaos theory in action-you know,the butterflys wing/major eathquake stuff-Your powers are great Skywalker,You must use them wisely…hmmm
I never did conclude whether you had solved your power-routing problems?-Since we are somewhat out of synch here I shall assume no & proceed accordingly
I have a vague & somewhat nebulous memory ( a statement which will stand on its own) of relays being mentioned,a possibly easier route might be a PECO accessory which is fairly easy to retro-fit and doesnt require a capacitor discharge unit to trigger. Its a simple sliding contact panel designed to be used with their live frog turnouts,in essence,it is connected to the tie bar & as you line the switch ( Im really getting a grip on this language thing dontcha know ) the polarity changes with it.
If used for anything other than stub-tracks,one is best off using insulated joiners (also from PECO in their red label code 83 range) on the inner rails at the heel end of the turnout and powering the rest of the track direct from the bus.
They can be surface or under-board mounted and whilst designed for use with the companys solenoid switch motors,Im sure anyone who can maintain a trombone in working order on the road should have no trouble in hooking them up-if not,Ill build a demo piece and E-Mail some blow-by-blow pix.
Back to trailing/facing turnouts,I suspect that since over there you have a largel

3836

Hey TED-You guys are seeing it from within,try downloading some copy from the British & European press,trust me, Uncle Sam does not enjoy the prestige that was once his due,I shant elaborate,since this is not the place,suffice it to say that in many quarters the white house enjoys much the same degree of popularity as a yeast infection Like yourself,I shall be back in an hour or so , P.S found Boris disco-dancing to RED Ps new logo earlier -strange days indeed (most peculiar mama),later,nick[C=:-)]

3837

Evening all- after reading through all the posts I’m not sure who has the bar now. Any how about the usual Alex. K and a round for anybody else at the bar.
[bow]for Nick Rob and Ted for keeping things rolling in the captains absence[:)]

Just got my copy of Ian Wilson “Steam Through London” and lo and behold on page 3 is a great photo of 4-6-4T #48 the very loco I mentioned to Robyesterday. Afraid my 2 pics taken with a Brownie box camera don’t quite match up. I’ll try sending them anyway.

Doug enjoyed the article on the RPO. Must have been quite a trick to sort that mail on swaying train with dim lights. Mike great piece on the GTW/NYC . Do you think anyone would go the extra mile nowdays like the GTW did[?]Al another great one in the Streamliner series-would like to see a picture of the Comet-sounds like a bit of an oddball piece of equipment. NickYes I will take that ride on the Can-Am, what I’ve seen so far looks like a great pike.BTW the great oil explosion made prime-time news here-a miracle no one was killed. Do they know how it started yet[?]

Well back to “Steam Through London”

Bye for now-Keep it on the rails

Don

3838

Hi guys,back for more,
DON -welcome buddy,latest thinking on the tank farm fire is a lorry driver flicking the kill switch on his motor…
TED-today is obviously synchronicity day-have just spent a pleasant hour watching the other screen,Bill Wymans Rhythm Kings in concert ( Feat. Georgie Fame ,Albert Lee,Andy Fairweather Low et al )-kicked off with mystery train-of recent mention herein and then rewarded my hubris in assuming your “days like this” quote to be from Lennon song by playing the Mose Allison number of that name. Albert Lee playing sublime guitar throughout the set (by the end,the other players were just staring slack jawed) and for a grand finale “tear it up” with one of the other players standing behind Lee,reaching around his shoulders and playing a duet on the same guitar,absolutely breathtaking stuff-well worth a look if showing over there ( 50 years of rocknroll concert from Liverpool docks,all material from 1955 or near enough )
Well looks like a good sort of evening to have the gals polishing the brasswork,dusting down the booths and generally making the best use of slack time.
Sounds like the three track gangs are assembling in the pool room for the monthly pool,darts & dominoes triathlon,which is now refereed by Leon & Vito the hit after previous unpleasantness,Boris is in the galley stocktaking ( one,some,many,lots,one,some,many,lots - a fairly redundant exercise but it keeps him away from the paying customers ) Tex is out in the yard switching beer crates around the timesaver track plan that TED & ROB have painted out for him with Awk acting as dispatcher-I vote we paint him in C.N. Zebra colours (orange/red head & tail with b&w flanks-the kids will love it [swg].
The squeeks & giggles emanating from upstairs suggest that SIR MANAGER THEODORE is on top of the accounts,amongst other things [:-,] so I shall retire to a quiet corner with my beloved Rickenbacker Bass to prepare for the festive gig season (so far,boxing day -Cardigan $400,N.Y.Eve-Llangwm

3839

O.K chaps,thats me for the moonlight mile,tomorrows another day,another dollar (curse those union rates)-The girls will pander to your every need (no ,thats pander Not panda) until the lord and masters return,see you for fish fry night, may your deity of choice smile on you,sleep well,nick,[C=:-)]

3840

Okay Nick I’m back, thanks for spelling me at the bar. Cindy, decided to “hang in there” until Leon does the lock up after “last call.” That lets us both “off the hook” for the wee hours if it comes to that. Good sport Cindy and I know she can use the “overtime.” Well, good evening jdonald Don, Cindy has your nip covered. Yes, I too would like to see the Comet’s appearance. I’ve exhausted my resources and had no luck retrieving old photos. Two very unfortunate disasters, the dam break in S.E. MO and the fire at the petrol depot north of London, both without fatalities. Maybe it is the season for miracles, after all? Please forgive me if I’m not totally focused. I’m viewing “Inside Grand Central,” a documentary on the National Geographic Channel whilst typing this Post.[tup] I’ve seen it before but gotta catch it “one more time.”

Nick, thanks for remembering the “routing” cunumdrum on my Pike. One “arm” of the double slip connects to a through track to the Terminal and the other connects to a 3-way switch (also Shinohara) and those 3 tracks are “stub end” in the yards. I like your idea of using the Peco option, wasn’t aware that Peco had “live” frogs. I’ll do almost anything to avoid using relays. Sure, I would appreciate an e-mail relating to the “insulated” rail joiners version and thank you in advance for your trouble. Common rail proceedures go "out the window’ as far as I can tell thus far. I am a bit nonplussed as to your last post in re: the White House. Was it something I said? Your elaboration on this would be most welcomed via e-mail as well. I often refer to the European press as well as other overseas news agencies through a URl known as the Drudge reports. A particular favorite of mine is the The London Telegraph. The Times and B.B.C. follow along the lines of 75% of our own “mainstream media,” while the Telegrah seems to have a different ageda. Glad to chat over the net with you on any catagory of your choice. It has been a sl