A lot of information has come out since my last post on page 1. It sounds like you have done a lot of thinking, and have some focus on what you would like to do. You have made a good start.
If you do not have them, I recommend you get the following books:
“How To Build Model Railroad Benchwork” is a great, basic guide on building strong lightweight benchwork that makes effecient use of materials - i.e. saves $$$ http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/400-12175
“Track Planning for Realistic Operation” has a lot of information about how to design a track plan that works well. In particular there is a section about laying out your space in “squares” that apporximate the curve radius in the scale you choose. Dividing up the room this way will give you an idea of how much space you will need for the layout in the available space. You mentioned you had not decided on a scale, so do this for both HO and N scales and see how you like the result. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/400-12148
Someone had mentioned a shelf layout, if you would like more information " Shelf Layouts for Model Railroads" by Iain Rice would be a good reference. (I am a bit wary of suggesting this because a lot of people on the forum have a hate/love feeling about his work, and I do not want to see this go into another I Hate Ian fest) I am not suggesting this as source for track plans, but to give you some ideas on how to use space in your 12 x 12 room. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/400-12419
This could be a large industry, you could suggest it by modeling one or 2 key structures, and assume the rest is “behind the wall” by doing things like putting photographs of space stealing scrap piles on the backdrop, or tracks entering a building flat
Another easy trick is to include a small industry “holding yard” - of cars that you drop off, which later will be switched to the specific loading and unloading spots by the (unmodelled) “in-plant switcher”.
Tony Koester (I think it was) also once modelled a large industry that was not on the layout by having specific instruction for a switcher crew on how to sort the inbound cars into a specific order (“so they would be easy to switch for the in-plant switcher”) before pushing them down and leaving them on a spur that ended at the layout edge aisleside (supposedly “continuing on to the plant”, which was imagined to be in the aisle somewhere).
You can have all the fun of organizing cars that go to the various parts of a big industry without actually physically modelling the big industry on your layout. All it takes is a little imagination [:D]
Here is a link to a guy who has modelled his steel industry (using various stuff like old shampoo bottles) as three holding tracks in front of flats:
Good idea Stein, another way to do this is a side track going to 2-track a hidden staging that disappears behind a hill, trees or a building. One track has “yesterdays cars” and the other is open for “todays cars”. Just push todays cars into the staging, uncouple, back up, switch to the other track pick up yesterdays cars and pull back to the main track. A large industry can be imagined / modeled that way
You have plenty of time, so there is no rush to start building. Set up a quicky layout with some snap track and a loco with a few cars, maybe built on a thick piece of foam, or even some heavy duty cardboard (like from an appliance box). Run it around a bit until you get your own ideas. Because it’s snap track you can change it quickly as your ideas change. Use simple boxes as stand ins for industries.
The layout must be your own, not anybody’s idea of what it is you should run. Don’t be afraid to make changes
Not sure if I will do a prototype LDE layout or just protolance it, but I’m 90% sure it will be GB&W. Looking at the web site I found a pic of a special very-limited run paint job that GBW did to commerorate someone that looked like a pretty good basis for a paint job on a modernized GB&W. I was picturing it on Dash 8’s but was a little stuck on the model. The Dash 8-32B looks a little more appropriate, but at the same time so few were made. The 8-40B seemed like a little bit too much hp. Unfortunetly besides the Dash 8’s built in late 80’s and GP60/60M’s built in very early 90’s there isn’t really any modern 4 axle lokes that GB&W could look at to replace aging fleets of Alco Century series. Could go back but then I’m looking at modeling GB&W replacing it’s aging fleets of Alcos with other lokes that are only slightly less aged. B30-7’s were made up till late 70’s, less than a decade after GB&W recieved Alco Century’s.
I think I will concentrate on figuring out a good time period and locomotive stock before anything else. Things aren’t looking to well so I won’t be able to start anything soon and at that it may only be able to be the size of a few modules. I am though, 99% sure on going with HO scale. I want to do some handlaid track/turn outs and it just seems simpler in HO than N.
Well for everyone following this and everyone who chimmed in with suggestions and advice I thank you much a do. I’ve finally figured out what I want to do. I still need to do some research, but I should be able to through up a basic plan tomorrow. To simply things and have less confusion I will just keep it all under this post, that way no one has to keep go scampering around the forums looking for it. That and it will make it easier for anyone who is following my post because they are in a similar situation and easier for anyone who crosses this post in future with the similar problems.
Not quite sure were to start but I guess the basics. I’m not solid on some things yet, but time will come. I would like to do a little bit of everything, to get the feel of it and expierence with it. Bench work may end up being a mix of open-grid and L-girder. I was never to clear on exactly how L-girder was untill I ordered the Jan '08 back issue for a possible WSOR/MR&T layout idea. DCC is tricky yet though. It could range from a Digitrax Zephyr unit, to a Zephyr with a UT4 throttle, to something a little more complex like a Digitrax 400R throttle/command with a CVP ZoneMaster power booster. I like the Zephyr because it’s cheap on price, but nothing else, but I also really liked the 400R throttle that the LTS had set up. I did mess around with both. I like the Zephyr because of the lower cost, although the LTS wants it for 10 bucks ($180) under MSRP yet I’ve seen it as cheap as $155 on some internet adds, but I’m afraid of being limited with a stationary controller. I will get to that in a second.
My basic plan is an around the room set up, with more of a trapazoidal shape so I don’t have to take the door off it’s hinges. After all, I plan to have sound, and I do live with my significant other who complains if you fart too loud [(-D]. It will be a continous loop with switching. I thought of this as a simple means of long runs, example after a way freight swi
As far as varying rail sizes, in almost every case the prototype would run the heavier rail through the turnout or crossing or sharp curve before stepping down to a lighter weight rail. The heavier rail is used to reduce wear as well as support heavier loads. Therefore, the heavier rail would be continued until an area of reduced rail wear was reached - after the turnout.
Following this practice, there would be very few, if any, code 55 turnouts on your proposed layout. The step down from code 70 to code 55 would occur after the turnout on the spur.
Instead of adding more words of mine to the pile, let me just post a few links to some good (and hopefully relevant for the OP) advice from Byron Henderson’s blog:
Trying to tell me something there Stein? The blogs are spot on, although a little belated. A few days ago I realized what I wrote as my idea was a bit too big. I could do it on a double deck N layout, but I really don’t want N scale anymore. The idea most mostly inspired by MR’s preview on Athearns N scale Sante Fe F45 with sound. I just loved the look of it so much, but it kind of went out of control. I think I still might get that engine though, just not the 200 dollar DCC w/sound version.
I sort of forgot the advice given to start smaller, make it modular so I can add on easy, which might have been given by you now that I think it.
I also run into the problem of advice. So far you and…I think only 2 or 3 other posters giving me advice have kept it real, not worrying about whether my feeligns will be hurt. I prefer it that way. I’m a big boy, I can handle being told some advice/critizism that may hurt my feelings.
The selective obsession, will I sort of have the opposite problem. I tend to want the full thing, when a more compressed industry would do me better. I’m taking it all in as part of the learning curve.
So here’s my newest thoughts. Still HO, made up mostly of 2 x 4 foot modules. A few will be off in dimension because the room is really oddly shaped. It’s just shy of 10 feet at it’s deepest, but it’s a tick under 11.5 feet wide (something like 118" x 137.5"). plus the 15.5 x 42.75 inch area that pops into the room for the door. Seriously, who ever designed the apartment must have been smoking something illegal that day. When I thought of it it took me about 2 minutes to come up with a better apartment layout that would have made that back room better. I might draw up a quick and clean drawing of it tonite so better ideas can be made. Everythings a little goofy so I can’t just take some pics. Unless I borrow a sturdy ladder, prefferably some scafolding, and take it from outside. Or knock
When I get to the point that I can’t make up my mind, my helicopter pilot training kicks in - make your best analysis of the situation (quickly), make a decision, and live with the consequences. If it turns out not to be what you really wanted, what have you really lost? Some hobby time and money. Neither of which is going to spend eternity with you, anyway. If you are having fun with the hobby, does it really matter whether you came up with the ultimate track plan, theme, or LDE’s?
More so with a modular plan than with an integrated plan, changes are easy and not all that costly to make. That was the whole point of David Barrow’s “domoinoes” - to make change realtively easy and cheap. There was a fellow advocating just that in Model Railroader in June 1962 - building a changeable railroad where you could change the scenery, structures, era, and theme very easily.
Buy the first industry/structure kits that take your fancy, and develop an early module from there. Build the kits, then route the track to fit. Change as necessary until you get the operations you want. If you don’t like the final result, get rid of/sell the industry/structures and pick another theme.
The time loss is no biggie. I will have time for it. I won’t however have money. Don’t mention ebay. I don’t do ebay. For that matter I can’t do ebay because appearently I did something on there that someone didn’t like and got banned.
I’m short on cash, right enough to the point that I honestly should just take all my RR stuff, lock it in a safe, give someone else the key, and have another person burry it. I probably should stop putting so much effort into it. So you see, the idea of buying a couple 50 dollar kits, maybe a 100 dollar kit, and a few cheap 30 dollar kits and not liking them isn’t really an option. For reasons I won’t go into I don’t, and can’t, do ebay. So to me if I buy all that and didn’t like it, well that’s over 200 dollars I wasted.
You do have a good idea and all, but I would rather be solid on what I’m doing instead of just picking things here and there and seeing if I like them. I guess a better way of putting it is I don’t like wasted investement. Especially when some of things I know will be a bit expensive, and if I decided I didn’t like it I would have to hear the ole “we could have gotten a new vacuum or something else useful” speech from the significant other. Although I do get to do the same thing to her now. I think I would prefer her obsession to be shoes rather than purses. Whats the point of buying a $35 knock-off purse when she already has about 20, and thats just here!! She has a big rubber maide tote full of them at her parents house in storage. And she never uses a purse long. Her first crap-off…I mean knock-off she bought was something like 40 bucks. She used it 3 weeks and that thing hasn’t even seen the outside since. This was a good 3-4 months ago. Sure 400 bucks for that really nice painted all brass MILW GP30
Well, looking back at earlier posts by you, and being aware of the fact that no one can read another person’s thoughts, I suspect that you probably wouldn’t really be satisfied in the long run with an East Coast marine railroad layout. You have looked at a lot of places and ideas, but you seem to tend to come back to Wisconsin.
So why not think about a freelanced railroad (based partly on look and feel from the Green Bay and Western, maybe even using engines from the Milwaukee Road) set in central/northern Wisconsin in the transition era, and make the marine element of that plan be a smallish ferry port on the Great Lakes RR on one end of the layout?
But I remember that Arnt Gerritsen had a very nice point to point Ann Arbor (Michigan) layout with a ferry port a while back in MR, MRP or GMR, I think. Ah, finally found it aftrer a bit of googling - an article in Model Railroad Planning 2005.
Don’t have my library of magazines with me right now, and can’t make any sketches of suggestions right now - am using my father-in-law’s computer in Minnesota, not on my own in Norway, but there could very well be that there is some inspiration for a Great Lakes ferry port in that MRP 2005 article.
You could always start out by making a small town (inspired e.g. by the GB&W) two or three 2x4 modules (and a corner curve), and add a little staging on both sides of this town to create traffic.
Or even add a simple unsceniced shelf to make a complete loop around the rest of the room for quick and dirty continuous run through your scene, allowing you to run e., 20 car long trains through your small town, while a 10-car local duck into a town siding to let the passing train through.
I don’t have the MRP issue Stein is referring to, but I would assume the Annie’s northern terminus at Boat Landing Yard in Elberta, MI would be featured in that layout. That’s where the Lake Michigan ferries were loaded & unloaded. The yard was actually fairly narrow, confined between a ridge and Lake Betsie, and I think a model could be quite doable with some compression. All the tracks are ripped out now, but the turntable, roundhouse, and docks remain.
Here’s an aerial of the AA Boat Landing Yard from Bing. The turntable is the yellow circle, and the RH is just to the south of it. Docks are to the west.
Sounds sensible. I got curious about the Wisconsin connection, and what do you know - it turns out that RR ferries from Michigan were unloaded in Kewaunee, Wisconsin, which just happens to be on the Green Bay and Western route that MILW-RODR was considering before.
Well - time for me to head for bed. I need a little sleep before crossing over (for the first time in my life) the border between Minnesota and Wisconsin tomorrow, to go explore some caves. We shall see if the Wisconsin natives attack us with boxes of vile smelling cheese or whether they prove friendly … [:D]
I just tore out four years worth of effort on my 12x13 and probably a couple grand not to mention countless hours. But it just wasn’t right. Take the time to plan… that was probably my biggest problem. This first one is probably not going to be perfect either no matter how well planned out but it helps.
Peter, I thought that was just part (expense) of the fun. I’ve spent thousands of dollars traveling, but never expected the dollars back. Same on this wonderful hobby of model railroading. Others spend much more on green fees. But what the heck. Wasn’t it fun, or at least educational?
… but planning you dream layout can become a very frustrating issue… [}:)]
Honestly, matching the various ideas with available space and money is not an easy task,especially when your mind is influenced by the beautiful pictures and ideas you see in MR amnd other magazines.
Just some food for thought from someone who has not yet completely left the planning stage and is still suffering from a disease called " cognitive dissonance" (i.e. cannot make up one´s mind)
I have given up planning a room filling layout in one go. I can picture a scene (call it LDE) but not an entire layout of that size. I cannot picture myself working on a layout for umpteen years and still not being anywhere near a “completion”. A friend of mine started building his layout 8 years ago and still is not in a position to operate one train properly. I know that I would bite a chunk off the pie that I cannot swallow if I´d go for one of those dream layout…
So what do I do? I´ve learned to think small. Small meaning anything between 6 - 8 long and about 2 deep - not more. This is something I can handle, built and complete and enjoy. That does not necessarily mean being “confined” to small layouts only. I think of my big layout as an arragment of individual scenes, each self-contained and operational, that are interconnected with “bridges”. It is a bit like a domino concept or a modular concept, with the exception that each “layout-element” is a layout of its own. My dream layout can thus grow step by step, it can change as I am changing. It can be easily moved if I have to move - a fully flexible concept!
