I think the Insulfrog shorting issue is overstated. Our club layout has about 75 HO Insulfrogs, all installed with conductive joiners. Few of our members actually know about the issue and we don’t experince shorts that can be attributed to the so called issue.
However, last club night we did experience a consistent short from one locomotive on two particular points. The loco is a Walthers loco so unlikely to have wide or no taper wheels. I didn’t have my nail polish with me but tried a bit of tape. That didn’t cure the problem but is is looking like the leading axle is out of gauge.
bagal
Mmmm… will update next club night.
I have about 40 insulfrog turnouts on my HO scale layout. Both code 100 and code 83. I had to add the .01 strip to the code 100 guard rails. Did not add any insulated rail joiners and in fact added feeders at the outlet of the turnout because the turnout adds resistance at the outlet. Did experience shorting at the code 83 frogs. Fixed that by either filing a bigger gap or using nail polish.
Whaaaat? Thought it was an urban myth.
It would be helpful if people report shorts to describe the equipment as to help others understand the problem, because the problem is not the turnout.
Completed the test with all of my locos. Put another 20 cars on the track. Shoved them as far as I could towards the frog and slid them back and forth.
How come I can’t produce a short even when I try, and others seem to have them just by running trains?
The issue must not be with the turnout.
Disclosure: I’m running cars produces after 2000 and locos produced after 2008.
But I’m an imprecise guy. I dont know what 0.10" is, or an RP-25, or a bunch of other stuff that gets discussed.
I simply buy stuff, unbox it, install it…and it all works just fine…over 20 years now. The only thing that didn’t work in the past 20 years were those old LL P2K GPs with the cracked gears…because it actually was a flaw…they all didn’t work.
I must be living right some how LOL.
We too have zero shorts on our Peco Insulfrogs. Whether we use power routing or isolating joiners to isolate sidings or passing tracks makes no difference.
We had one locomotive short over. Unifrog and got rid of the problem by getting rid of the locomotive.
We also have no stalling over Peco frogs.
Electrofrogs can’t short because they power route. Insulfrogs can’t short for the same reason unless you also power them from the diverging route back into the turnout. Best to leave the power routing in effect and isolate the back power track just as for Electrofrog. You can’t fault Peco for shorting when their design cant short unless you power it “wrong”.
When Peco redesigned these for the Unifrog they did not fully account for the non power routing effects. No doubt they will shortly (har har). Otherwise their Unifrog is very clever. I hasten to add that most modern equipment will traverse a Unifrog just fine. Ours all do.
We also have a Peco Unifrog double slip switch that causes no problems. You’d think if the new frog design was really problematic then the problems worked show up big time on a double slip but it’s smooth as silk.
Above I mentioned a short with a Walthers locomotive and thought it might be due to out of gauge wheelset. Turns out the second axle was about 20 thou out of gauge.
Like Douglas i have tried to replicate the short. Can do it by tilting a car, but that doesnt replicate real situations. I say there is no design iissue with Insulfrog, just a compatibility issue with some out of specs wheels.
Bagal
+1 [Y]
Rich
To be clear about it, shorting only occurred on a handful of my code 83 turnouts and mainly occurred with a specific manufacturer’s locomotives(probably wider wheel threads IDK). My concern about insulating the outlets of the turnout is that you’re relying on the point contact to pickup power. In my experience not very reliable.
Unifrog turnouts no longer rely on the points to conduct power but they are not power routing. Without the points only conducting the current past the frog you can’t have power routing. Gapping a siding rail and providing an on/off switch instead doesn’t address the conducting point issue anyway.
The throwbar spring pressure should be enough to provide reliable contact for power routing Peco turnouts. Reliability issues I’ve experienced are due to “dirt” or interference with proper throwbar travel.
To address the possible shorting issue with Peco Insulfrog, assuming you experience that issue, you should only need to isolate a frog rail that receives power back toward the frog because it power routes the diverging route through the point. The Electrofrog also only needs an isolating gap on a frog rail receiving power back toward the frog because it power routes.
For DCC layouts where all rails are always powered the possibility of shorting at the frog exists because power always reaches the frog rails. The actual incidence of the problem seems more equipment related than a design fault on the part of Peco. The new Unifrog is an aggressive design in that the isolated portion of the frog is tiny. Assuming the rolling stock is suitable the Unifrog should do away with the need to power the frog at all. I intend to just dispose of any equipment that won’t run over a Unifrog.
Or, maybe now I’ve seen and installed the new Walthers turnouts and flex track I won’t be using Peco anyway. Have to actually run the Walthers stuff for awhile to be sure it’s as good as it looks. Nice thing to do on Christmas Day, putter around laying and testing track on my layout under construction.
Also just received a half dozen TCS decoders to install in my P2K hood GP’s and my Bachmann Decapod. Good use of vacation time.
You can say or believe what you like, but Peco has already acknowledged the issue with the identical Unifrog frog design. They plan to re-engineer it to mitigate the issue. Others have reported shorting issues over the years here with the Insulfrog, which is going out of production bit by bit. So just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean all those other people are hallucinating.
Peco has redesigned the frog on the Unifrog.
Additional isolation gaps are inserted at the heel of the frog which basically turns the Unifrog frog into an Insulfrog frog.
This modification should be easy for a modellers to perform on existing Unifrog. I considered doing this myself but my Unifrogs seem to work fine with what I’m running over them at the moment.
They also moved the jumper wires to keep them clear of the frog wire.
Peco Unifrog are now built pretty much the same electrically as the new Walthers lineup. Unifrog are still only available in #6 and double slips.
Their new Code 70 rail system is in the process of release and looks interesting.
I’m HO scale.
Can you post your much easier install method?
Where specifically are you connecting 4 wires on the turnout?
Where are you soldering three wires on the switch machine?
Thanks.
Sorry, I’m not following your questions.
I don’t power the frogs, generally speaking.
If I do, for Atlas turnouts, I use an Atlas snap relay (solenoid actuated DPDT) wired to the switch actuator and to the frog and track power. The Atlas instructions that come with the snap relay show the schematic for that.
For Peco I’d use their twin solenoid switch motor and the nifty mechanical SPDT switch you glue or clip onto the underside of the solenoid actuating rod, Peco instructions are in the switch motor package.
Walthers switch machines have two SPDT switc you can connect for frog polarity control.
To add the modification to the Unifrog turnouts that Peco now uses in manufacture you cut gaps in the larger part of the frog, basically making it into an Insulfrog but all live except for the frog. It might be tricky to then wire both isolated bits of the frog, Peco does that for you with their new Insulfrog design. Moving the jumper wires isn’t necessary and might be a bit involved because the original location is right under the frog (which apparently has been conflicting with the frog wire) and the new location will have plastic tie material in the way.
I like Choice!
Just fish the Uni wire through and it works just fine without it. Later, one can hook up that wire if they choose[Y]
Especially choosing to run 0-4-0 switchers at slow speeds in yards.
TF