Need as many comments as you guys have. I have peco turnouts on my DCC layout and it’s time to put on switch machines. Being on a fixed income, what is the benefit of going with the Tortoise VS the cheaper Peco PL 10 switch machines. Both can use LED’s for throw direction, true? At a cost of $18.00 each for Tortoise, and only $9.00 for Peco. Justify the extra cost? Thanks
On our large HO scale layout we hand throw all the Peco turnouts that can be reached to do so, and power only those that are too far away to reach – there we use Tortoise and remove the Peco spring.
A tortoise can be powered from the 5 Volt DC output of an old computer power supply. I think a Peco machine needs a more hefty power supply with AC output.
Thanks for your msg. My Youngstown and Pennsyltucky RR is being built into an L shaped bar, therefore when its done, I cannot hand throw the turnouts because the layout will be under a glass or plexiglass bar top. Right now, as I look, the tortoise might be the way to go, even if it is a little more expensive. I can get a complete 6 pack for 90 bucks at Model Train stuff. Anyone see any cheaper, let me know. Thanks
I’m not certain that you are comparing apples with apples. The Tortoise comes with two sets of contacts for powering frogs and other things. It may be mounted below the table and requires about a 1/2 inch hole through the benchwork. It may be purchased new for less than $18 if you look for them on the internet. If cost is a concern, I’ve also seen used Torti at very reasonable prices. The Tortoise is a gear machine.
Looking at the PL-10, it appears to be a twin coil machine that is made to be mounted directly to the turnout. Its specs say that it requires a rectangular hole 40 mm X 24 mm (about 1-37/64 X 15/16 inch) below the turnout. I don’t know about you, but I don’t have a rectangular hole drill bit. If you want to mount the PL-10 below the bench work, they sell a PL-9 mounting plate using a PL-10E with an extended pin. The PL-9 adds $1 to the cost. Plus the PL-10E is about $1.50 more than the PL-10. I also don’t think that the PL-10 comes with any contacts by itself. I think that they sell a PL-13 accessory switch that mounts to the bottom of the PL-10. I think this is only one set of contacts and costs about $4.44. I’m not certain, but the construction of this accessory switch leads me to believe that you can stack one on another. If that is true, then you can add a second set of contacts fo
The tail of the LION and the Tortoise.
LIONS only use Tortoise switch machines. What you save on the machine you will easily spend on wire, and on frustration in mounting.
Assuming you have a common GROUND, your Tortoise only requires one wire, Twin coils require two (unless like the LION you employ diodes so that momentarty + = diversion while momentary - = normal) LIONS have got to conserve wires. Him already has over 300 conductors from the tower to the layout.
Torti are so forgiving on instalation and you can do fancy things with them. LION also uses them inside of the interlocking machine to lock levers that are not to be pulled.
Answer: neither of the above. Tam Valley Octopus, $40 in single unit quanities, less if you need more than 4, drives 8 servos, available on ebay from various sellers for about $2 each. If your layout is a ‘traditional’ plywood subroadbed, you don’t need any fancy mounting brackets, you can just glue the servos right to the botton of the ply. Simple toggle switch operates them, or you can add their fancy pushbuttons with LEDs. You can end up adding a lot of optionally accessories before you get up to the per turnout price of a Tortoise these days.
–Randy
I’m a Tortoise fan, despite the cost difference in the machine. Peco are, as was mentioned, a coil type machine that slaps the points to and fro and requires a momentary pulse to control it. The Tortoise is a stall motor, so is gentle on the track and operates more realistically, depending on a relatively low voltage constant current to hold them in position.
If I had Peco turnouts and the Peco machines mounted cleanly, that would be worth considering for a set-up like yours.
Otherwise, as a satisfied 100+ Tortoise user I can tell you they are very reliable. I’ve had one bad one in 20 years. I’ve had an issue with the contacts on another one, but since I just use one of the two sets for frog power in most cases, I just used the other set to repair the issue. All that’s needed to control them is a DPDT switch wired to reverse the power to change direction.
It was mentioned 5 volts can power them, but they can take up to at least 12 volts DC with no problem. They throw faster at higher voltages, if that’s an issue. I generally use 9 volts, powered from a dedicated wall wart. I just keep adding machines to the circuit until I add one and it doesn’t have enough oomph to drive the machine. Then you know it’s time to add another wall wart. No special calculations needed.
One drawback to the Green Machines is that they are rather tall. With roadbed, etc you’re talking ~6" of depth needed to have the clearance underneath required to fit them. This is one place where the Peco machines likely have an advanatge. Depending on whether you have enough space for the Tortoises, this could be a dealbreaker for them built into a bar.
You can use screws to mount the Tortoise, but I’ve taken to just using hot glue. Works fine and they can alos be popped loose – at least from plywood – to reposition o salvage them.
I haven’t personally used them but I’ve heard really good things about the Micromark Switch Tender switch machine. They look to be very easy to install and wire.
That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Tortoise switch machine and I would not hesitate to use them.
This distinction may not matter to the OP but as a practical matter one big difference between the switch machine Peco and the switch motor Tortoise is that the Peco slams the points over with a snap/bang, while the Tortoise (assuming you remove the spring from the Peco turnout) quietly and gently moves the points over in a way that many of us still find rather mesmerizing. Visually it is very similar to an actual electric switch motor on the prototype.
If you intent to use Peco machines for a yard ladder or other use where more than one switch is thrown at once, you are likely to also need a CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) because the Pecos use a lot of juice. Peco makes a CDU but there are other brands. So there is another expense to be added to the total assuming that is how you intend to use your Pecos.
Dave Nelson
Remote mounting of Tortoises is easy.
ROAR
I’m an electrical/electronics neophyte, but I’ve operated on many layouts that have had Tortoise switch machines that have not failed after (probably) millions of throws over 20 years or more. One layout has used them that long and had only to replace two near the end of that time. That convinced me that they were everything I’d always read and heard they’d be and well worth the cost due to their other uses and dependabilty.
If it’s merely a matter of saving some money, I’d recommend saving it elsewhere and having a farily bulletproof -with a good warantee product you can trust to work.
The more experienced guys here have other recommendations but as a beginner, I found the Tortoises worry free and “comforting”. Their Circuitron Co. online help is great and their instructions are very simple and clear.
I’ve had one remotely mounted on their optional bracket and it’s very handy for tricky placements. They can also, of course, be mounted vertically if space is tight and hidden inside a structure.
Jim
I firmly beleive solenoid switch machines are prehistorical machines by our time.
Use stall motor for moving your turnouts; if used on Peco turnouts you obtan a better result by removing the Peco retaining spring of the points.
Tortoise is certainly the Rolls Royce of the stalling motors and had already build contact, Switchmaster is also a good stalling motor but whithout contact; I use both since many years and none’s falled.
Micro Mark sell the switch tender a “stalling motor” I never use, but some report say they could produce heat when staying in position.
RC servo’s are another issue, but they need a controler to move them, Tam Valley offer the contoler whith led position, but after buying the servos, the controler I am not sure there is a big difference between a stalling motor and them. and I prefer a stalling motor.
Tortoise and Switchmaster can be buy in quantities whith bargain price; Switchmaster are made by Hankcraft display motor.
Our clubs N scale layout and my home layout are installing servos for any new instlations. Servos are about $2.50 each (the 9g micro type), Tam Valley Octo IIIa is about $40 (controls 8 servos), remote aligner (recommended) $12. You can use mini toggle switches and wire them yourself. Servo cables and connectors make wiring a no-brainer and modular. Cables and servos available on eBay. Do some research and you will find that servos are less expensive and reliable.
Here is a link to easy mounting and control linkage of the servo:
http://waynes-trains.com/site/NeatStuff/ServoMounting/ServoLink.html
The $9 price for the switch motor doesn’t include a PL 13 auxillary switch for the LEDs. A PL 13 costs about $4.35 and will only operate one accesory unless they are linked in a series. Also you may want a CDU.
When I installed mine it was reccomended to use a capacitor Discharge unit which gives the motor an extra burst of energy and protects the twin coil motors from being burned out if you hold the toggle switch on too long.
I also use Peco turnouts with the PL 10 and PL 13 and am very satisfied. Some don’t like the clicking sound when a turnout is thrown but I find it reassuring to know that the turnout has operated. To me it was easier to install the Pecos because most of the work is done top side and the motors attach directly to the turnout.
The Peco PL 10 mounts under the turnout and requires a hole approximately 1 inch X 1 1/2 inch and 1 inch deep for the motor. My layout has 2" of foam over plywood. THe only hole I had to cut in the plywood was for the wire otherwise I wouldn’t have used the Peco switch motor.
Bob
Yes, in many cases it is. But it sounds like the design is pretty settled here and if the clearances are tight underneath, then installing remote mounts can still be a sticky wicket for a retrofit. Doing it as planned during initial construction is the best bet if you need to do a remote mounts for any switch machine.
I’ve got Atlas, Peco and Tortoise machines on my layout. All of them work very reliably, and have done so for years. The Pecos definitely need a Capacitive Discharage Unit.
I started with Atlas, using snap-switches and a few #6 turnouts on Phase 1 of my layout. For Phase 2, I started using Walthers turnouts and Tortoise machines. The slow motion point movement got me, and I have been using them ever since. I’ve also found that with the longer turnouts I need to power the frogs, so one set of contacts on the Tortoise machines are dedicated to that, while the other set can be used for signals.
Another option, which no one has mentioned is the coBalt machine by DCC concepts. It’s a very good machine and very reliable also smaller overall than a tort. It is newer to the market and can have a DCC decoder already built in. Not a lot of people use these as of yet because it is a “change” to the norm and a lot of people are afraid of change. Check them out, I love them and have had no issues. Also come with a warranty for life.
You can keep your nasty little mini-switches!
LION likes levers him can put his big furry paw around!
Besides, the pics of those TAM servos or whatever they are seem to require a cat-5 cable to connect each one. That is EIGHT CONDUCTORS! Have you any clue what eight conductors costs on a big layout.
LION uses only ONE conductor per turnout. After all, each station block needs FIVE conductors:
Him already has over 300 conductors between the tower and the layout. TAM would want 400 more! THAT is money, not to mention a plain pita.
ROAR
Resistence to change? Maybe when dealing with servos. But the Cobalt? It’s MORE expensive than a Tortoise, draws more current, which precludes it from being used with simple series LEDs like a Tortoise, and in fact may be too much draw for some stationary decoders meant for stall machines. Other than it being slightly smaller than a Tortoise, which may have an impact with multi-deck layouts, I don;t see much selling point to the Cobalt vs Tortoise.
Now, when you can have the mechanism, DCC decoder, local pushbuttons, AND LED indicators for less than the price of the basic Tortoise - this is where I am surprised people aren’t flocking to it. That’s the resistence to change.
Yes, I used Tortoises for many many years. But with everything else going up, costs had to be controlled somewhere.
I also ran trains with DC power for over 30 years before switching to DCC. Sometimes, there are just better options worth investigating.
–Randy
Randy,
Yes, worth investigating. I think we should give such installs a decade or so of reliable operation, then people will see them as an alternative with wider adoption. Personally, with the exception of a branch line currently under construction (with some Tortoises on hand for it already) , I’ve got almost all the machines I’ll likely need. I could see experimenting with servos and other things. The new branch is getting homebrew manual switch throws made from blue box receptacles and lighting switches for the most part. It’s not powered except by humans and the trickle through the hot frog swicth in it, but it’s the cheapest of most these alternatives, but not quite in the same category as the OPs original comparison.
The biggest question for me on servos is they’re made to fly in planes, which crash a lot. I’ve got no idea how many cycles they’re engineered to last, but we’ll know more in a few years how they hold up in a layout environment.