I wish I had all the answers regarding the above subject, but I don’t… yet.
I plan to share this on several forums. After musing aloud about future PRR layout plans, Jerry Britton (of Keystone Crossings fame) suggested I consider the stretch of the PRR’s Northern Central branch between Wago Jct and York, PA. This is a double-tracked line with decent scenery and plenty of freight and passenger ops, along with online switching opportunities.
Anyway, this line connected at York Haven with the PRR Atglen & Susquehanna Low Grade Line from Shock’s Mills, heading north together as the York Haven line to Enola. From York Haven north the line is under catenary. This is a mixed blessing, being that I’ve always been fascinated by PRR electric ops.
Let’s talk a little about what we can do in N scale in order to replicate PRR electrified operations. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there off-the-shelf, or even easy kitbashes.
Locomotives:
GG-1: I have one of these by Arnold/Rivarossi. It’s nicely detailed but the paint job is poor and it doesn’t run well. Also has oversized flanges and isn’t DCC. Then there’s brass.
P5a/P5a modified: Nothing in N scale comes close. I wonder if at least the boxcab version could be built via some European or Japanese chassis. The body would be a tough scratchbuild. Again, flange depth and DCC-compatibility are potential issues.
FF2: The Kato/Tomix JNR EF-15 is kind of close, although its windows look more like the P5a body. This would make a decent “foobie.” I don’t know about flange depth or DCC options.
E44: Nope. Nothing close that I know of. The sharp angles on the body at least make scratchbuilding a somewhat less daunting endeavor.
Experimentals: A number of experimental electrics ran on the PRR. The welded bodies on some make kitbashing/scr
Catenary takes time to do. The hardest part of it is starting. I use phos bronxe wire I bought at a local wire supplier. I asked for 400’ and was told when I bought it the minimum order was $20.00. (This was 20 years ago) As I was waiting for it I asked how they nromally sold it and was told by the pound. I the asked many feet were in a pound and was told 800’. I then asked how much per pound and was told something like $1.98! I then asked for ten pounds and still have a lifetime supply. HO isn’t much better. P5a’s and E44s were run by Alco many years ago but they aren’t up to today’s standards. A lot of diesel and steam ran under the wires as it was going off electrified routes. Catenary should be the last thing you install and you definitely need a track or two where you can put equipment on the layout. Even the PRR hated the catenary when there was a wreck.
Good info! I’m looking at doing non-energized catenary, so any type of wire or thread, so long as it looks right, should do.
I’d be willing to forgo the suspender wire on the trolley wire if I could use the super-stretchy spandex stuff so I could reach under the wires.
Again, I’m contemplating the futue, not the now… but just the same, I’d like to use the next few years before I can start a bigger layout by building locomotives and structures (including catenary, if necessary) to be ready when layout construction starts.
Well Dave, You might have a problem with N PRR electrification.
I am planning the New Haven’s 4 track mainline with those structural catenary towers and anchor bridges. I have done the drawings using the original NH blueprints that are over a hundred years old. I will be making my own with brass etchings. Because the wires are almost invisible in HO gauge, I don’t plan on installing the catenary system, but I might where it would be needed, like at the New Haven Union Station.
I run my GG-1 (Yeah, I know) and the EP-2, EP-3 and EP-4 electrics (under the wires) with their pantographs up and all. The trick is to glue a fine black thread on the pan to keep it from extending too high where it could get snagged on bridges or the overhead catenary tower spans.
In N gauge, installing telephone/telegraph wires is equally futile due to the aforesaid invisibility problem. The same can be said for the catenary wires. Just put up the poles, restrict the pan heights and use you imagination.
If you want to do it up right, just switch to HO gauge where there is a plethora of motive power and rolling stock available. I have 2 each of the P5a and P5a modified, and O-1C, a B-1 and the GG-1 in Tuscan red, not to mention the MU cars and P-70 coaches and pullmans. That would be enough to get the ball rolling. Watch for them on E-Bay.
I remember a while back MR or RMC had an article on an N scale Milwaukee Road layout using overhead wire for power. The builder said he found the electrified line ran more smoothly than the “regular” two rail sections, had less trouble picking up power etc.
I’m afraid I’ll have to pass up any advice suggesting I switch to HO scale… I’ve been there before, and I ain’t going back![:D]
Actually, the locomotive situation in HO is not much better at all, besides the buh-zillion versions of the GG1. Everything else is still a brass or kitbash proposition.
Dave, the only way I know of is to get in touch with the Ncat section of Ntrak. You are correct, the best running locos will be of euro or japanese design. THere may be some TGV/German trains done in Amtrak colors. THere may be something else to stand in for the Swedish Mouse.
I’ve seen a bash of 2 alco shells into a Little Joe electric. Kato/concor did some GN units.
It appears there may be no separate Ntrak N Scale convention this year? For some time, a local club would serve as sponsor for an Ntrak East or Ntrak West event. some years, it depends on how well Ntrak is supported at the National NMRA Convention.
The Ntrak Collectors Convention in August appears to be the only other event this year. The Conventions can be a great way to meet other Ncat’ers. They can do some amazing building/bashing.
Avoiding extensive catenary construction requirements is one reason I’m putting together the circa 1956 interurban, Conemaugh Road & Traction, as a free-lanced interurban.
Its inspiration comes from combining the three prototypes found in the Johnstown Traction Company (city PCC & interurban), the Conemaugh & Blacklick (Bethlehem Steel industrial), and the B&O (branchline) operations. There will also be an interchange with a 2-track Pennsy mainline, and perhaps 4-track (in places) surrounding the CR&T.
Another good prototype interurban source actually comes from L.A.'s Pacific Electric.
As to electrical, I had initially thought of DC for live overhead, but; am now considering DCC without live overhead for targeted engine control and wiring consistency for both the CR&T and the Pennsy layout divisions.
Thus, the use of NCat http://www.teamsavage.com/ncat/ncat.html single-wire overhead and pole specifications makes N Scale traction a lot simpler let alone provide strong solder joint construction for that overhead. This methodology will still get the sound of “singing wires” into the air with either single poles or pantographs which in either case will not include a plastic substitute.
To model Pennsy N Scale catenary will be an absolute scratchbuilding endeavor which will require designing PRR-specific templates to assemble that catenary.
Constructing PRR prototype-specific catenary is no doubt opening up new territory. This is not unlike your experience of making your own kitbashed PRR steam engines, and PRR Trainphone antennaes on your diesel motive power.
When you venture into N Scale traction, it is a given that small to large amounts of conversions and/or scratchbuilding will be required of the modeler. But, that is the case with any scale when you model traction (for the last 75 years) with the only real exception being a better selection of engi
If you want to paint an EF15 Brunswick green and assign it a PRR FF-2 number, I won’t tell!
I recall seeing someone’s very simple portable N scale module, PRR theme, with an obviously JNR loco in green with a keystone. Memory doesn’t serve when it comes to identifying the class.
The skunk at the garden party with the P-5a is the 72" driver - by far the tallest electric loco drivers in the USA. (File the counterweights out of steam drivers?) A ‘modified’ P-5a (with the GG-1 style carbody) might be an interesting kitbash.
I like your idea for spandex contact wire. Since my original scheme called for virtual wire and held-down pantographs, that might be a workable solution. (JNR heavy catenary, 1500vdc, used double contact wires and was far from invisible!)
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Chuck [modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in Twice-N (1:80) scale]
Enjoyed reading about the GG1. I bought one on Ebay (BLI HO scale). When it arrived it wouldn’t run. Got mishandled in shipping. Anyway, the seller refunded my money, but refused to take it back. It is brand new, so I am goig to send it in to BLI for repair. It will still be a good deal, I essentially got it for free, all it will cost is repairs plus round trip shipping.
I think it has a gaer jammed up. Sounds system works just fine, lights come on.
You can hear the motors run, but no power to the wheels.
Anyway, my layout is downstairs in the basement, not bad, EXCEPT, I broke my left foot last Thursday evening at work, and negotiating the stairway with crutches is a real trick, so I haven’t been downstairs since last week, so been doing some research, some reading, even watching a really neat train video I got at best Buy earlier last week, there’s about 12 hours of video on all kinds of steam era trains,including PRR stuff, and UP Big Boys.
It helps fill in my hours of sheer boredom setting with my foot elevated.
Anyway, you guys all have a good time in the trainroom!
Dave I have read many of your posts and seen many of your pics, what a GREAT layout!
Some people have been kind enough to offer that this might present a challenge.
Indeed!
Then again, if I wanted to open a box and have a finished model fall out, I’d be in HO!!![:-^]
Just kidding! The HO guys are only marginally better off when it comes to PRR electric ops.
Apparently 3-rail O is where it’s at if you want the full gamut of Pennsy electric locomotives.
Again, the main focus of my future layout (if I go this route) is still the non-electrified Northern Central… the electric portion is only a short segment.
As such, probably a loop folded to look like a double track line (since the electric York Haven line stayed parallel to but seperate from the NCRR branch I’m focusing on) wth a single freight train consisting of a GG1 with an FF2 “foobie” (a la Kato) would suffice.
Of course, FF2s were based out of Thorndale on the Philadelphia Division main. The only photos I’ve seen of an FF2 on the York Haven branch are of one with its pantographs down being towned toward Enola for inspection.
Guess I’ll need to get my modeler’s license renewed…!
I wish I had all the answers regarding the above subject, but I don’t… yet.
I plan to share this on several forums. After musing aloud about future PRR layout plans, Jerry Britton (of Keystone Crossings fame) suggested I consider the stretch of the PRR’s Northern Central branch between Wago Jct and York, PA. This is a double-tracked line with decent scenery and plenty of freight and passenger ops, along with online switching opportunities.
Anyway, this line connected at York Haven with the PRR Atglen & Susquehanna Low Grade Line from Shock’s Mills, heading north together as the York Haven line to Enola. From York Haven north the line is under catenary. This is a mixed blessing, being that I’ve always been fascinated by PRR electric ops.
Let’s talk a little about what we can do in N scale in order to replicate PRR electrified operations. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there off-the-shelf, or even easy kitbashes.
Locomotives:
GG-1: I have one of these by Arnold/Rivarossi. It’s nicely detailed but the paint job is poor and it doesn’t run well. Also has oversized flanges and isn’t DCC. Then there’s brass.
P5a/P5a modified: Nothing in N scale comes close. I wonder if at least the boxcab version could be built via some European or Japanese chassis. The body would be a tough scratchbuild. Again, flange depth and DCC-compatibility are potential issues.
FF2: The Kato/Tomix JNR EF-15 is kind of close, although its windows look more like the P5a body. This would make a decent “foobie.” I don’t know about flange depth or DCC options.
E44: Nope. Nothing close that I know of. The sharp angles on the body at least make scratchbuilding a somewhat less daunting endeavor.
Experimentals: A number of experimental electrics ran on the PRR. The welded bodies
The FF2s arrived on property in 1956 and were used in helper service. They were powerful beasts, but slow. Operated at anywhere near the speed of a G, they would overheat.
You could always take a stab at some of the experimental electrics, like the E2b, that look sorta like FAs with pantographs.
I know. It’s the section north of Wago Junction that has wire.
I actually do want to model a section of electric ops… I’ve always been fascinated by it. The main focus of the layout would be the line south of Wago Jct, which, as you point out, had no wire.
Came across this old thread while looking for something about interurbans in n, do not know if you still are going to model elecric operations but a couple of thoughts came up:
Baldwin/Westinghouse and GE build experimental loco’s for PRR. The Baldwin ones look very similar to a group of electrics build by them for Spain, IIRC. Don’t know if the Spanish loco’s were ever available as a kit or brass. The nose would seem to be the most difficult part?
Here in the Netherlands we also had Baldwin electrics (Nederlandse Spoorwegen NS class 1200). But for thre trucks locally build. They look somewhat like GE’s NH Jets (EP5?). There are models of this CoCo electric in n (Minitrix I believe).
Yea, electrified lines in HO scale are hard also. There is some E44 form bachmann in ho scale, like conrail, and PRR. Idk what to say Dave. I think conrail took out the Wago Jct canteries.
