Philosophy Friday -- Heritage: The Link to the Past

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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“Heritage: The Link to the Past”

1946: 100 Years of Pennsylvania Railroad

Its fun to have a train layout, whatever the level of detail, skill level of the modeler, type and quality of the equipment and so on. Model Railroading is Fun! (I’ve heard that somewhere before… [:D]) And, just like on the prototype, its fun to to watch the trains move, and to watch them working hard to deliver their cargoes to imagined far off destinations. Part of the allure of trains, I think, is the simple enjoyment of watching them snake their way across the landscape, hearing the roar of the engines, the pounding of the rails and shaking the ground as they rumble past. And then there’s viewing the cars as they go past in all their splendid varieties and colorful liveries. Its definitely exciting and generally hard to ignore, a spectacle in and of itself to be sure.

On the prototype, a train is what it is, however it is-- its the prototype, therefore we must accept it. And as the saying goes, “there’s a prototype for everything”. Probably somewhere at some time-- whatever it is-- its probably been done before by the prototype. So in essence, that means we’re given free reign to do whatever we like, because surely at some time in the past our prototype has done it before and therefore, according to the maxim, we can too. And of course if that maxim won’t suffice, there’s always that other one-- “It’s my railroad!” Which, as a side effect, also tends to effectively end the conversation. In the tiny arena of Model Railroad justification, it’s the “Nuclear Option”.

So the question is, aside from the

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Model a prototype and your “heritage” is prepackaged, prewritten, predocumented, not a problem.

You don’t have to create anything extra, you just have to find what exists.

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Basically, you get your heritage “ready-to-run”. There’s no creativity involved. Where’s the craftsmanship? Where’s the personal effort that distinguishes the “real” model railroader from the wannabe??[(-D]

'I’m a bad boy."

</Lou Costello>

Andre

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Interesting subject today. I have a little of both. I model primarily the Western Maryland, so I have all the back story and evidence that surrounds that, and have gone about modeling some of it to help establish the time and place of my layout.

I’ve built a roundhouse based on the one that stood at Elkins, West Virginia,

I’ve built train order stands to demonstrate how the WM controlled traffic

I’ve built industries and coal mines to demonstrate some of the traffic types that occurred on line.

And built up a fleet of locomotives and freight cars, kitbashing and painting many of them to resemble specific WM prototypes.

Now, I’m working on stretching the boundaries of my layout, and building up a fleet of steam era equipment, so the layout itself is starting to develop a heritage…

But I also have that freelance itch to scratch, so decades ago, I dreamed up the Laurel Valley Railwa

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Well, well, well.

WHen I got back into the hobby about 3-4 years ago now, I wanted to go HO. ALways wanted HO, and as a kid only had O O/27. I see now how important it was for a child {both me and my 4 year younger brother} to have O guage to play with for little hands and 'craftsmanship". But I always wanted the “realism” HO seemed to represent.

I also enjoyed watching the Chessie System stuff go rolling by at the crossing near my childhood home as we waited to cross the tracks as a teen in the 70’s.

SO This Time I got some HO steam Locos- a few cheapy DC types…didn’t care as long as they were cheap for my {now} tight budget. I had a fantasy RR going in my head. It would only run Steam, and serve about the first half of the last century. The G, B & S RR. Now at one time, If I wanted to digging here for that old post, I, in another question post like this listed the “heritage” or at the time the “history” of my G,B&S RR. It was a long and probably rediculous to some who read it. Created entirely in my head, and you would probably think I was I was on drugs. You see, there is a bit of a joke behind the name, that while many may have gotten, I don’t think it impressed them any. You are probably wondering now what the G,B &S stood for. The name of my fantasy RR was- TA DA! The “Grimey, Black, and Sooty RR”. Because many steam locos, in heavy service often seemed grimey, black and sooty, and only gets the ocassional polish or washdown, He He. { Was it worth it???}

Now, I have some “built in heritage”. as I “protolance” The B&O and all it’s incarnates- The C&O, Chessie and CSX, so I can trade out locos and RR cars and run anything for that long-standing RR so I don’t get bored lo

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Interesting topic John,

First off I suppose the heritage of my railroad is pretty clearly defined. Southern Pacific built a line from San Jose, CA up to San Francisco, CA which has since been taken over by Union Pacific gobbling up everything in sight. Southern Pacific is my favorite railroad but the present day is my favorite era. Problem? I think not. Fortunately there are a couple old geeps that patrol this part of the line that are still in SP paint. On my layout they will probably evade the evil paint shop forever, though they do have a yellow box with red numbers below the cab and a couple Union Pacific heralds.

I’m probably done buying Southern Pacific locomotives since technically my prototype is the Union Pacific. The rest of my heritage is done through my (imperfect) car roster. Having cars that correspond to the roads that are now part of the Union Pacific shows that there were once more players around, but now there are just a few. So I suppose that really I don’t model the Southern Pacific but more the Union Pacific (grudgingly).

Cahrn

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Here’s mine:

The Genisus of the Blackwater and Butte Creek Railroad:

In 1882, J. Henry Coulter inherited the claim homesteaded in south central Oregon by his maternal grandmother’s uncle, Norman Shakespeare. Traveling on foot with his pack-mule, Daisy, Henry explored his property and discovered that it was forested with the usual Douglas fir trees, but that there were also acres of white oaks. It seems that Norm was a cooper and he planted the white oaks to grow his own materials.

Hank, as Henry was known to his friends, set about establishing a logging operation, but getting the logs out proved nearly impossible, between the surrounding cliffs and Butte Creek. The way was only passable via mule or on foot. Not to be deterred, Hank looked into a couple of options. A guy named Zorba suggested a tram-line and offered to build it. After some consideration, Hank built a rail line, including two tunnels and a couple of trestles to provide quick passage to the little town of Blackwater. Business took off and Hank soon had a full scale logging operation. Three or four times per day, short strings of log cars, pulled by tiny shays, snaked down the narrow right of way to the mill at Blackwater. Seeing no use for white oak, Henry sold those acres to Ron Stave.

Being a family oriented kind of guy, Hank encouraged his employees to wed, and bring their brides to live in the logging community near Norman’s grave; he named the town Butte Creek. Over the next 20 years, the logging town grew to a population of over 1,000, but it was still only reachable by rail. Hank had the guys in the backshop build a handful of short passenger coaches, so the families could come and go in comfort. These little cars only have one truck, so they let the occupants enjoy every undulation in the track to its fullest.

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Heritage RTR yes. But just because I give you a book on anatomy it doesn’t make you a brain surgeon. The creativity, the challenge, the craftsmanship is discovering the heritage (if “real” heritage was obvious this forum wouldn’t need a prototype section) and then trying to condense and distill it down to an essence that will fit in a basement.

I say that is harder with a prototype railroad than a freelance railroad. With a freelance railroad you just weave inconsistencies into the story so they cease to be inconsistencies. You pick the path with the resistences you want. With modeling a prototype you have to deal with the resistences you are given.

I’m not sure what you mean by you last comment:

“Where’s the personal effort that distinguishes the “real” model railroader from the wannabe?”

If you think that modeling an actual area isn’t “real” model railroading and by not “being creative” by making up your own heritage makes you a “wannabe”, here’s a little test.

I want a model railroad of the Wilmington & Northern Branch of the Philadelphia & Reading set in 1900-1905

Provide me with:

A history of the W&N

Passenger train schedules

An engine roster (W&N and P&R)

An equipment roster (W&N and P&R)

Drawings of at least 5 engines that operated on the branch

Drawings of at least 10 P&R cars and 10 cars for other roads

Pictures of the depots on the line

A list of at least 25 actual shippers on the line and their businesses

Track plans of the line and at least 2 of the yards/major areas on line and track plans for at least two major industries.

A photo of at

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My new layout relates to my PERSONAL experience and Nostalgia. To do that, I have done a little “prototype-bashing,” mostly involving places.

I think I became interested in , especially passenger, not from the prototype but from the glorious Lionel O gauge streamliner set under the 1950-something Anthony Christmas tree in , with the hefty A-B-A diesels and the 8 gleaming stainless steel cars (NOT the standard set!) Another influence was a 16mm sound color movie from the Association of American Railroads, “Mainline USA” which my dad showed over and over on our home projector.

I finally got to ride a real warbonnet-pulled streamliner-- or as real as Amtrak Santa Fe got - in June of 1973 just weeks before the warbonnets were replaced by Amtrak SDP40Fs.

When I went into N scale, my f

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dehusman:

Heritage RTR yes. But just because I give you a book on anatomy it doesn’t make you a brain surgeon. The creativity, the challenge, the craftsmanship is discovering the heritage (if “real” heritage was obvious this forum wouldn’t need a prototype section) and then trying to condense and distill it down to an essence that will fit in a basement.

I say that is harder with a prototype railroad than a freelance railroad. With a freelance railroad you just weave inconsistencies into the story so they cease to be inconsistencies. You pick the path with the resistences you want. With modeling a prototype you have to deal with the resistences you are given.

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Sorry, This is the narrative that went with my previous post and got deleted. I model both prototype and freelance at the same time. My freelance lumber company and railroad interconnects with the prototype at a real place along the SP in 1909. The prototype dominates the heritage and the story. I find it to be much harder to model the prototype portion than the freelance portion because all of my prototype early 1900’s locomotives require heavy bashing. My freelance locos do not since most of the geared locomotives I use are commercially available for that era and need only minor modifications. I also find I have to do at least 5 hours of research for every hour of work on the prototype. However, from a heritage point of view, introducing a freelance lumber mill into a real place presents problems. I work with a logging and RR historian in Northern California and when I first showed him a picture of my freelance sawmill, he told me that it would be impossible because there is not a satisfactory supply of water in the area I am modelling. So, during a visit we made to the site he suggested a mile post along the prototype line that would be better suited. It was however too far away to model based on my existing track plan. We did find an alternate after he went to the local water department and figured how this new location could pipe in the needed water. Again, my track plan could not accommodate the tunnels I needed for view blocks and the tunnels I needed would not match the prototype which had no tunnels in that area. My heritage story is now becoming so complicated that I may have to break a lot of the rules that I had initially wanted to follow and I am now taking some really drastic steps to make the scenes fit my limited layout room space. However, in the end, only my industrial historian friend will know. Peter Smith, Memphis

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Denver, Colorado, United States of America
March 18, 1887
0932 hours local time

The president of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad leant forward in his chair, ready to hear what his visitor had to say. Arthur Nicholas Bradford was a local businessman who had a reputation for being both determined and eccentric. Across the desk, Bradford leant forward, a glint in his eye.

“My geologists are telling me this is the one of the biggest coal strikes in these here mountains. Your railroad is the only means available to get men and equipment in and coal out.”

The president nearly sighed. He’d heard such proposals before, several times. They always wanted the railroad to shoulder the construction costs - which also meant taking the risk. The president met his visitor’s eyes, seeing the enthusiasm within.

“And how do you propose to fund the construction of the line to your mine?”

“I’ll take care of that. I’ve already got backers lined up, some as far as New York.”

Well that was a change, thought the president. He rose to his feet and turned to a cabinet behind the desk, from which he drew a map. He turned and unrolled it on the desk.

“Where is this coal strike of yours, Mr Bradford?”

Bradford peered at the map for a few seconds, then indicated a location. The president peered at the indicated spot, noting that it was quite close to the recently-completed branch line from Gunnison to Anthracite. A distance that wouldn’t be too difficult to cover. He looked up from the map to Bradford.

“You have a deal, Mr Bradford. I will have our legal department write up the contract.”

A smile crossed Bradford’s face. He’d known that the president would be reasonable.

In due course, the

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Heritage RTR yes. But just because I give you a book on anatomy it doesn’t make you a brain surgeon. The creativity, the challenge, the craftsmanship is discovering the heritage (if “real” heritage was obvious this forum wouldn’t need a prototype section) and then trying to condense and distill it down to an essence that will fit in a basement.

I say that is harder with a prototype railroad than a freelance railroad. With a freelance railroad you just weave inconsistencies into the story so they cease to be inconsistencies. You pick the path with the resistences you want. With modeling a prototype you have to deal with the resistences you are given.

I’m not sure what you mean by you last comment:

If the laughing smiley wasn’t a clue, the Costello comment should have been a dead give away. It was tongue-in-cheek. I was being an agent provocateur with a big grin on my face. It wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.

Lou Costello: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0182579/

“I’m a bad boy” is a line from one of his movies and my use of it refers back to the disturbing of the stuff not generally falling under the heading of Shinola.

I heartily recommend “Buck Privates” wherein the irrepressible duo of Abbott and Costello are drafted into the Army and in which the Andrews Sisters sing “Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B”. Also, “Buck Privates Come Home”, the post-war sequel. Then there’s “Abbott And Costello Meet Captain Kidd”. Shoot, here’s a list of films: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0182579/

I hate it when you have to explain 'em.

Andre

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I’m going to respond before I read any more of this thread, mainly because it took me 2 hours to read through the first post (A reflection of my free time, not a condemnation of the length of the post)

My protolance railroad has a heritage. A rather elaborate one. As I learn more about real history and factors in real mergers, bankruptcies and routes, that history is changed to reflect more accuracy.

One of the great things about this is that in times when I am sans layout, such as right now, I still have positive steps I can take in the hobby to reach my goal. I’ve even painted engines that are currently in storage. I can take these to the club I belong to and run them and have my railroad.

If you are interested, the Proto-Freelance Modelers Special Interest Group on yahoo groups is a place to share this aspect of the hobby. Many of the group members send out press releases via the group and discuss the logic behind their choices.

For me, right now, my modern day railroad, the Chicago Denver & Central Pacific is about to announce a major deal with EMD to do up to 1000 ECO rebuilds over the next 10 years. I’m working on the press release at this time.

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Well you will still haven’t because still I dont’ understand your comment and your explanation didn’t really provide any clarification other than someplace in there you think you made a funny.

Whatever.

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Sigh, His Smilie and the Lou Costello quote mean he was joking, that he didn’t mean what he was saying. He said it with the intent to provoke a reaction (which you thankfully provided).

I’m a BAAAAD Boy, I’ve done something that will get me in trouble.

In other words, he meant the exact opposite, but was stating a knee jerk reaction that often gets made for purposes of dispelling it early.

Personally, I think pure prototyping is harder and personally not as much fun. Others think it’s super awesome and the best.

Still others, and I suspect many are like this don’t really have a heritage for their layout, it’s just inspired by a prototype, but the names and locations are just made up. Some internal consistency may be shoe horned in, but overall, it’s not thought out that well.

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I must say how much I’ve enjoyed reading this thread, especially JW’s well-crafted (as usual) initial posting. Even though I am restricted for various reasons to a 4’ x 1’ switching plank, even that needs a reason for its existence. Being a UK resident does rather restrict one’s knowledge of the North American scene, but there is a mass of information around to eliminate apparent inconsistencies in the scenery department, as much as in the rolling stock department. Putting a model of a Santa Fe Californian depot in the middle of a filthy industrial yard would seem rather inconsistent, but much of the scenic make up requires only a little common sense to largely eliminate such inconsistencies, and give an appearance of homogeneity and realism to the whole scene, even if it does not conform to some clearly identifiable prototype.

Dennis

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Not long after I decided where and when I intended to model I spent part of a combat zone tour writing an elaborate history of the entire geographic area (with names changed to protect the guilty) starting clear back in the fifteenth century. It ran to about a dozen closely-spaced typed pages and supposedly explained why the railroads were built and how things got their names.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) that long, complex history has disappeared into the mists of time, a casualty of one of the numerous moves in our nomadic life.

Other than the (now lost) history, the only artifacts relating to the heritage of either the JNR or the TTT are locomotives and other rolling stock - from the cosmetically upgraded 1873 0-4-0T and rather improbable 2-6-6-2T on the latter to the accurate models of personally-observed prototype numbers on the former. I have a rather fully developed concept of how things are and how they got that way - but it resides between my ears and has been reluctant to travel as far as my fingers on this keyboard. Maybe when there are buildings and scenery as well as cars and locomotives…

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - if I ever build my way out of the netherworld)

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What’s not to understand? Was it not obvious that I was referring to the whole RTR tempest in a teapot that arises here on an almost weekly basis but with a slight twist? For crying out loud, is it not a very small leap to make the connection between actual history as the equivalent of RTR and the historical fiction of a freelanced railroad backstory as the kit/scratchbuilt version? Is everything to be taken literally?

Whether or not you thought it was funny is irrelevant. Even if you thought it was undecipherable, there were all kinds of red flags in my original that said “DON’T TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY”. When I was channeling Lou Costello, it was merely a commentary that I was being a bit devilish. You know, like this ----> [}:)]

So yeah, whatever.

Andre

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My Model Railroad heritage is set in the eastern United States with CONRAIL, CSX, and NORFOLK SOUTHERN locomotives and unpatched fallen flags freight cars. I also model AMTRAK phase I with F7 and heritage fleet cars, phase III with F40PH, MHC boxcar and heritage fleet cars and the current phase V AMD103 with phase IV Amfleet, Viewliner and Superliner passenger cars. I like to model SOUTHERN RAILWAY steam excursions with Southern Mikado 2-8-2 #4501, an auxiliary water tender and heavyweight and/or streamlined passenger cars. My trains are sometimes fantasy and not always prototypical. An example is a CSX YN2 and/or YN3 diesel locomotive pulling unpatched predecessor CSX freight cars and a YN2 CSX caboose or 1 or 2 CSX passenger cars for mixed train service. David Briel An eastern US HO model railroader